To think that Islamic state will cause world war 3

[ReallyTired]

I feel terrified for the future. I believe that the world will reach a point where there will be outright war to stop Islamic state. In the meantime Russia will annexe the Ukraine and much of Eastern Europe.

I am scared that Islamic state will get hold of atomic weapons. There are Muslim extremists with the intelligence to make a nuclear bomb. There are Muslim countries with uranium deposits.

en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uranium_mining#/media/File:Uranium_production_world.PNG

I don't think IS will cause WWIII, as they're too isolated and don't have enough money. They are psychopaths. Russia worries me more.

They have no airforce no actual plan of action and no way of starting a war they arr best isolated and ignored imo bunch of tossers

AIBU to think that Wilts and Caffe will start WW3?

Enough already, you two. Wilts, check your sources. >25% of the world's muslims radicals? Says Brigitte Gabriel? Oh, right, then I'd better sit up and take notice... And Ingrid Carlquist, founder of the unapologetically xenophobic Dispatch International and enthusiastic ally to the inherently racist Swedish Democrat party? OK... Where do you find this stuff? And you're not much better, Caffe, coming up with a phrase like "the victims of Islam", which, the way I read it, appears to mean... well, muslims?!
I fail to see how anyone who has ever travelled, who has ever sought to connect with real people in the real world, with an open, enquiring mind can seriously perceive things like this. My life has been blessed and enriched by muslims in so many manifestations: friends, health professionals, pupils, hosts, travelling companions, neighbours, lecturers... and not a single one a "radical". Boo.
Spect the thread will have moved on lots since I started this (on phone, breastfeeding, dark etc) so apologies if points have already been made.

peaceful we all know peaceful true religious people. Good people of all or no religion.

Unfortunately that doesn't alter the fact that caffee makes some good solid points.

Caffe I agree with some of what you say and I'm going to have to invoke Godwin's Law to make a point. Take Nazi Germany. The vast majority of people on the street didn't know that the final solution was happening. They didn't drop the Xyclon B or push anybody into a cattle truck and if they'd actually seen what was happening to gays and Jews and the handicapped and gypsies they would probably have been horrified. But they did in degrees support a system which allowed that to happen at the centre. They didn't protest when Jews were forced out of their jobs or gays made to wear a pink triangle or communists attacked. They might not have actively supported the ideology but they didn't attack it. I feel much the same way about a lot of Muslim's in the West now. They might not be the ones that are beheading Christians, or shooting Jews or burning pilots in cages. But many of them are supporting the increments that lead up to that: oppressing and devaluing women, curtailing the freedom of speech of others. We don't talkin terms of 'moderate Nazis' and praise Germans who only thought Jews should be harmed economically as progressives. I often wonder why we seem to be dealing with people who have a very similar ideology but because race and religion have been brought into it we've lost the will to confront it.

We have a long and noble tradition of freedom of conscience and religion. But if perhaps Nazism had dressed itself up as religion would we have lost the will to deal with that?

I also find some left wing people who would proudly label themselves as anti-racists the most racist of all. Because to them a brown face is always neutralised and harmless when faced with a white westerner. I think that's naive, I don't think it's always going to be that way. And it strikes me as eminently possible that in 50 years time our grandchildren may face forced conversion or death. Because the left wing will be absolutely convinced that only white western people can do bad things until they're having their head cut off for not burning their copy of Richard Dawkins and replacing it with the Koran.

BiscuitMillionaire not enough money? Are you kidding me? ISIS have accumulated a huge amount of wealth through kidnapping and subsequent ransom payments which countries such as France and Italy pay millions for as well as the millions they earn each day from oil sold on the black market. The money that they have is one of the most worrying aspects.

See here

Slaggy

Offensive to who? You?

Since people being "offended" by the words (and drawings) of others is what's getting us into this mess then, sorry, but I don't care. At all.

Taking offence is a choice. I won't take responsibility for your choices.

Having re-read Caffe's post, I see I misinterpreted the sentiment, and I apologise for misrepresenting what was a point well made.

Ah, that save me responding to you, Peaceful. Yes, lets never, ever forget that virtually all the victims of Islam are Muslims. For all sorts of complicated reasons.

Although Wilts is right...intelligence from all over the world does show that around 15% of Muslims do hold with the more extreme interpretations of Islamic doctrines. That's a minority, but it's still an awful lot of people.

MoanCollins

I almost agree. But not quite.

What did the Nazi's have written on their belts? Why were the Jews such a justifiable target? I think it would be a stretch to claim Hitler was motivated by religion (his motivations lay elsewhere) but he certainly used the religious beliefs of others in order to get them to carry out his biddings, didn't he?

But the comparison between Islam today and Nazism is fatally flawed.

Hitler didn't have a book, believed by 1.6bn people to be the last and only word of God/Allah in which murderous atrocities were mandated. Islam does.

I really wish people (including most Muslims) knew exactly what the holy books of Islam actually say. I also wish they understood just how fervently and completely many Muslims in the world believe in it.

We really must, must, must be willing to criticise Islam and everything it stands for. We really must.

Hitler wrote his own book, he wrote Mein Kampf. it was his manifesto.

Wrecking

Good heavens. A manifesto written by a human being is the same as a holy book written by Allah himself that's lasted for 1600 years?

Your "point" (if that is one) is ridiculous

Caffe
You are right. The racist left will never admit that they were wrong though.

Do you think Hitler does not have followers and admirers today?
People who think he did not go far enough?

Yes I remember reading mein kampf years ago as a student, very boring self indulgent pseudo philosophy.

CaffeLatte I dont think many people would argue with you in saying violent censorship of anyone who disagrees with Islam is wrong. Conversations should be held about anything and everything. I'm horrified by the burqa and medieval interpretations of Islam. I'm horrified by the likes of abu Hamza who turn our democratic freedom of speech against us to preach hate to gullible young men.
People cry Islamophobia where Muslims are criticised because so much of the Western discourse is dominated by racism, its like the old "PC gorn mad" when you hear it, it triggers a response.
But its no coincidence that the countries where IS and Taliban flourish are among the poorest in the world with largely uneducated populations. Most of these countries have been left as economic basket cases by either the legacy of wars they did not start, tyrants they didnt elect, colonialism and/or foreign interference/invasion from the West. Just look a the life expectancy figures in Yemen. 14% of all deaths in pakistan are due to flu and pneumonia, they're the second most common cause of death. The West is not blameless here.

People there are starving, education is too expensive for most and healthcare doesn't exist. Life, as they say, is miserable short and brutish, Under these conditions any one of us could be turned into a fundamentalist westerner-hating Muslim. Add in the Mullahs and Imams who enjoy relative power in their communities seeking to maintain their status by encouraging blind faith and superstition among people, most of whom cant read and promises of a wonderful afterlife if you die as a martyr and people who want to desperately believe their lives or afterlives will be better if their enemies are destroyed. Education is the key to defeating fundamentalism, there's no more inherent violence in Islam than in any religion, its the material inequality that's fuelling jihadis.

Wrecking

I am genuinely struggling to see your point.

Is it the fact that Mein Kampf and the Koran are both books that's leading you into the comparison? Or maybe that they are both hateful?

Yes, there are Nazis around.

But are you worried about Nazis causing WW3? Do people accuse you of hate crime for criticising Nazism? Do you think "Nazis" when you hear about suicide bombers or cartoonists being shot?

No.

There are comparisons between all murderous, totalitarian ideologies - religious as well as political - but to pretend that Islam today is directly comparable to Nazism today is simply ridiculous.

And no, as twisted as it is, you cannot compare Mein Kampf with the Koran. The Koran is far, far worse.

Sheba

The only part of your post I would disagree with is where you say that Islam is not worse than any other religion. I think it is. Christianity is incredibly hateful too when taken literally - as exemplified by the horrific Westboro Baptist Church - but the instructions to kill, kill and then kill some more are not really there. They are there in spades within the doctrines of Islam.

Never mind the Koran...the example of Mohammed is bad enough. He was a terrorist, nothing less. And yet he's held up as the most perfect example of manhood, beloved of all Muslims everywhere, so precious that (to some) he's worth killing for.

But I agree with everything else you say. You are of course correct that it's not a black and white issue and that we must acknowledge why people cling to religion rather than just blaming the doctrines themselves. That would be shortsighted.

Although you are not right in that most people would agree with me that we should be criticising Islam. They really don't. They think it's racist for me to be doing so.

I don't rant for nothing, you know .

caffee

You can't be a racist criticising a religion!

That's not sensible. Race is protected by law and religion isn't. Muslims/Christians etc can be of any race.

And I agree with your posts absolutly and also sheba

Goodness missed moans post.

Excellent. Agree.

Sheba, that's kind of what I mean about left wing racism. These countries are always poor and subjugated by the west, blah, blah. It's never their own fault, they have no power for self determination or capacity for self improvement but are merely ciphers blown hither and thither at the will of white Western people.

Which completely ignores the fact that these countries are poor because nobody wants to invest in violent, unstable, criminal corrupt countries and those things are the results of the actions of those who live there, not the west. Let's not forget that Islamic violence isn't just aimed at non-Muslims but also at the wrong kind of Muslim.

And I think people are somewhat missing the point about the Nazis. They're banned today in Germany and Austria. And if people suggest sympathy towards them it's overwhelmingly disapproved of. If they suggest that the final solution went to far but the rest of their policies were okay we don't congratulate them for being 'moderate
Nazis' and say how marvellous they are for signing up to basic humanity like not murdering people because they're a bit different from you.

there is a difference between criticising an ideology and lazily throwing stereotypes and prejudice around about groups of people.

also muddling together disparate issues and treating them as one.

also this idea that you're either a realist and believe the world is about to end or you're a privileged ridiculous leftie who wants the world to go to hell in a handbasket.

and yes too the idea that any discussion, including negative aspects, of complex issues involving race or minority groups etc = racism.

the whole thing becomes lazy polemics and nonsense.

it is near impossible to discuss but on this thread it was the ridiculous statements about things like the loss of courage demonstrated by no bacon at a school somewhere and pizza hut making a commercial decision to use halal meat that turned it into a farce.

Ive often thought that OP. They are not that far away from Turkey and hence the rest of the European mainland. Unlike the Soviet Union, they are fanatical enough not to care about nuclear annihalation. Plus these extremists have cells all over

When the Japanese journalist was beheaded and the Jordanian pilot was burnt to death, I wondered why Muslims weren't taking to the streets with posters saying 'Not in our name' or 'I am Kenghi'.

I thought perhaps it was a cultural difference. Then there was a Muslim demo in London. They were protesting AGAINST Charlie Hebdo.

The moderate Muslims need to find their voice and make it heard.

(Sorry, Sheba. I misread your post, way back at the beginning. But whether nuclear war is expensive or inexpensive financially, it's beside the point when it comes to M.A.D.)

Thymeout When the Japanese journalist was beheaded and the Jordanian pilot was burnt to death, I wondered why Muslims weren't taking to the streets with posters saying 'Not in our name' or 'I am Kenghi'.

Yes, I agree. Obviously individuals made statements, but there was nothing on a massive, public scale.

I find that concerning, as Sharia Law already permits such atrocities by authenticating them, depending on the regime - the voice of the people, or community consensus is considered to legitimise actions in law in certain interpretations. So I would have been more reassured to see public mass demonstrations against the murders, organised by leading Muslim clerics if necessary.

TheHoneyBadger

it is near impossible to discuss but on this thread it was the ridiculous statements about things like the loss of courage demonstrated by no bacon at a school somewhere and pizza hut making a commercial decision to use halal meat that turned it into a farce.

Guess that was me then

Apologies for the de-rail but it struck me that whilst IS is nasty and vile etc. it bears no direct threat to us here in the UK. However, within our midst we have young men being radicalised who wish either to fight for IS or fight us.

Young men that hate our way of life - its depravity, debauchery, amorality (as they see it) and seek to change it and enjoy it in equal measure (by raping young women whose increased 'availability' they both hate and exploit). They hate our supposed freedom of speech - especially when either Mohammed or Allah is ridiculed or insulted. They wish to impose their illiberal, mediaeval way of life upon us - and do away with many of the rights we have gained over the centuries.

And, parallel to this violent minority, we have smaller, almost imperceptible changes occurring (i.e. the Pizza Express halal, swimming classes etc.) that are also changing our way of life in the same direction of travel - albeit by peaceful means.

My concern is that one day, we will wake up and find that what was once a manageable minority has become mainstream and, as it has done so, the numbers of violent radicals has also increased to a point where we have terror here on our streets.

So I apologise but, where I see us taking the wrong turn, I will point it out and thank those that do the same.