To ask a friend to stop speaking her own language?

[jujujbel]

I have a very dear friend who is from another country but has lived in the UK for 20 years. Her DC are bilingual. Often, when we are together, she will break off the conversation to speak to her DC in her own language. This makes me uncomfortable and I find it rude but I have never mentioned it. However, a few days ago my DD came home from spending the day with my friends DD (they spend a lot of time together). She talked about how she hated it when they talked in a different language in front of her as it made her feel excluded. I explained that i had felt the same way and that it was actually considered bad manners to do this. I told my DD that if she felt uncomfortable she should say to her friend in as nice a way as possible and that I would do similar with the mum. The very next day, my DD did do this when the situation arose again and explained how it made her feel. She came home quite upset as she had argued with her friend about it.

We were all meeting up later anyway. When we got together my friend immediately said to me 'have you hear detox?' She then went to say, I'll speak to your dd to explain that I'm not talking about her it's just how we speak. I then said that I agreed with my DD and it made us both uncomfortable. My friend was shocked that I found her rude. I explained that it was only in the context where we are all having a conversation in English and they then break away to speak in a different language. Although I know they are not saying anything bad about us it is a horrible feeling and I don't understand why they feel the new to do it. I compared it to whispering. I have been very clear that it is only in the context of a group conversation being started in a shared language and then being continued in a language that not all of the group can understand.

My friend has now told me she will not speak her own language in front of my DD but that she will distance herself from us. She feels I am the inconsiderate one and that I am discriminating against her.

I am so hurt and confused. I guess I am just looking for a bit of MN perspective.

Sorry for the essay.

Thank

English is my first language, we're talking my second language that is his first. Feel free to doubt it, I can.t prove it obviously, but it's true :-)

I don't think you are being unreasonable.
I have this issue with PiL infact I made a show of myself a few months ago when we went to a restaurant, we were all given a menu, I was helping the DS's choose, they were v excited. FiL and MiL chatted to waiter in their mother tongue, menu's were taken away and it turns out they had ordered for everyone without a word in a language DS's or I could understand.
I was F^&*ing livid esp as when I asked what was ordered I was told not to worry I would like it.
I was just as cross with DH for not standign up for his kids when they were upset when the food they wanted had not been ordered.

I was thinking of verbs of the third group in imperfect subjunctive mode... We both do a lot of guessing head scratching when we aren't warmed up!

oh I see. I do doubt it though. I am sure you know more words that you use every day, esp if you are teaching, but your partner will have a half forgotten store of abstruse and weird words.

I think it's rude. I can see why people do it if their native language is much stronger than their second language - of course it feels natural to them to speak in their native language. But if they are reasonably fluent in their second language, then that is what you should use when friends are around. Having spent a lot of time around bilingual people, I do think that a lot of them recognise this, though some don't.

I believe GreatAuntDinah - my French is a lot better in every respect than most French people with significantly less education than I have.

strumpers that's unusually inconsiderate behaviour on the part of the parents in law. I've never heard of people being given menus they can't order from or waiters not asking the customers what they want. If the restaurant is in a popular location it's likely to have menus in several languages.

Dora menu's were in english, which is why DS's and I knew what the options were!!!

and just to add into the mix that PiL have lived here since 1963(moved here aged 19)! they have had professional career's here.

I'm the one with the abstruse vocab in our house Sunny, being a voracious bookworm and professional linguist. I regularly come out with words he doesn't know. Will stop now as I realise how arsey I sound :-)

I think it does depend on the context. Having full on long conversations for half an hour leaving you standing there would be rude but breaking off conversation to say something to each other and then get back to talking to you is, I think, different.
I speak Welsh at home with Mum and brother but fiancee is English. When he's about we speak in English but there are times we lapse-it isnt deliberate- its a habit of a lifetime. Yourfriend is trying to make sure her child has a grasp of her language and culture. Thats hard when you live in a different country. She should be congratulated not criticised. I'm not surprised she wants nothing more to do with you. You were v unreasonable..

lol dinah no you sound fine, it is always an interesting convo.

I'd second the point made about people who are truly bi- lingual often swapping between the two without realising and without intending to annoy/confuse anyone . My parents,first language Welsh but fluent in English, did it all the time. ( my monoglot DH never seemed to mind).Often alternate sentences . Or one would start a conversation in one language and the other would reply in the other.
I spoke only Welsh until I went to school, aged 3, was truly bi lingual until I was about 12 . Then unfortunately ,because my parents didn't insist on Welsh at home, I started using English more ( I don't know why!) . 40 years later , I can still understand quite a lot and am fine with the fiendish grammar, mutations etc but my vocabulary has diminished . DD1 is very proud of being half Welsh and has never forgiven me for not speaking it to them as children. And if you are fortunate enough to be have a modern European language as your mother tongue then do try and make sure your UK- living children speak it . I have a friend whose DS is English, his wife is Italian and they live in Norway . Her GS aged 5 is already tri- lingual and will no doubt easily pick up the language of wherever they are posted to next . Early years is the time to learn a language

Speaking of obscure French (well, we are now), when I was in Paris many years ago, there was a show advertised in Pariscope.

"Bouliquement Monty Python"

it was a tribute show, in French. However, no-one appeared to be able to translate "Bouliquement" - which even today, Google has no idea of.

Incidentally one way to make a French person hate you is to ask them what a printed word (in a French magazine) means, when they don't know.

The closest anyone would suggest was "oh, it's a nonsense word". But they couldn't explain why it was funny.

I wonder if this will out me - it's a very specific occasion .

Sadly I did't get to the show, as it started after I left.

I speak english to ds unless i know the person im with doesnt understand, so the very young, and the very old. The thing about speaking english is that everyone understands so its not like youre excluding anyone. If my language was anything other than english i would switch for all the reasons pp mention above.

Yabu. I speak to my children in Welsh without even realising I've switched languages sometimes, because its what is natural for us.

My dd has a friend that has BSL as a first language. By your theory, are they (friend and friend parent) rude for using BSL at home to talk to each other? said frusso on the first page.

Don't be so effing stupid

YANBU. At all. Distance herself from you....she does this in your company when switching languages when they both speak English.

Her loss.

On threads like this people often cite rude behaviour which happened to take place in the context if another language, as if that proves that it was speaking the language that was rude (when in fact it was the behaviour that was rude or unpleasant, not the fact it was conducted in another language). I have recently seen this exact thing happen on another thread about speaking a language other than English in England.

Strumpers ordering for you and your children without your knowledge or consent was what was rude, not the fact they spoke another language to the waiter.

The poster up thread (hard to scroll back mid post on this phone, it takes me back to the start of the comment box if I do) who said they felt awkward when their friend's mum and friend argued in front of her in another language as a child - it'd have been at least as awkward if they'd argued in front of you in a language they knew you understood every word of surely! It was arguing I front of you that was inappropriate, not mother and child speaking a few private words in their native tongue!

Bouliquement is a made up word that sounds in French like "bollockly" would in Enlish. Les boules = balls, but also "oh shit, sorry about that mate".it also has shades of other words like boulimique, but hard to know how intentional that is.

I work in a multi-national company and we often have meetings with people from many different countries or lots of colleagues from just one other country (eg Germany, France, China) and us Brits. When they are speaking to each other our international colleagues of course use their native language but when we are all together in a group they ALWAYS use English as it would be rude to have a conversation where some people present can't understand what is being said. We even have cultural sensitivity training where the company explain how rude and excluding it is to leave people out of the conversation by using a language not everyone understands.

It may be different with a child, however, as you are not in a professional setting where you are constantly aware of how you are presenting yourself and especially in your own home you probably just go with what you are used to. However if I were in your friend's position and my child spoke to me in our native language in front of non-speakers, I would say "Remember, jujubel doesn't understand [insert language] so we will speak in English for now" and then reply to her in English. That way she will learn that whilst it is a great benefit and privilege to speak another language it should not be used in a situation which would make others feel uncomfortable or excluded.

red not everyone understands native English speakers talking among themselves in English at all! Depending where you are perhaps... But people often ask me what I just said to my child/ren or what they just said to me (especially if they think it might have been amusing). Native speakers speak fast and use words non natives don't learn at school. You have to assume people understand of course, or sods law I'd the old lady sniggering behind you in the supermarket queue understood every word you just said to your DS about not fiddling with his willy in the crisp aisle :o But not everyone does, by a long shot (or I'd be out of a job teaching adults English).

The issue is when the conversation has started in English, is a subject that involves us all and then switches to the other language.

Thought I would just emphasise the context.

It's rude.

A family can't really be compared to a professional setting. In a professional context, when discussing work-related issues, it makes perfect sense to use the language everyone understands. Family interactions are quite different, and there are always ways to include others even if you strictly adhere to OPOL. It sounds to me as though the OP's friend is actually very accommodating and uses English most of the time. So she and her daughter occasionally slip into the language they are most comfortable with. Wouldn't anything of significance be translated anyway?

As I mentioned above, we are a bilingual family. I also have cousins who speak a completely different language at home. When we are all together, the multilingual mixture is lovely, even though I don't understand my cousins' second language and they don't know mine.

If it bothers you that much OP, stick to friends with English as their 1st language. This topic could go on all day but bottom line is, you can't control how your friend chooses to address her child in their own home, particularly a bilingual home. Even if you think you have to be privy to all they say, or its rude. Its not a professional work setting and she is speaking with her own child, she isn't sitting there chatting away with a friend in your presence, in their own language. & she isn't doing it in your home. I don't think Id like to have a friend that insisted I only speak English to my child in my house in her presence (what happens if you slip up? Points taken off the friendship?! because she WOULD slip up - its natural to her to talk to her child in their heritage language).

I don't sense from your post that you're round her place that much anyway. & it sounds as if your DD caught on to you moaning about it, and so went and had a go at her friend. Hence, awkward situation all round...when on the spot, you could simply have asked her what she's said, even if you dressed it up as wanting to learn the language, maybe. Thats what Id do if I were a real friend. Probably resolved now anyway, if she is distancing herself from you she won't have to worry about always remembering to speak English in your presence, and you won't have the bother of wondering what she is saying to her child.

Rightly or wrongly, there it is...you don't control. & 500 people saying she was being rude won't change that. A work/professional setting..now, that would be different...