To hope we look back on this in horror?

[Fanfeckintastic]

I'm in Ireland and recently watched a documentary about Irish women going to England for abortions because it's illegal over here. I was saying to DP that hopefully one day we'll be able to look back on this with the same horror we do at the fact interracial couples were once not allowed to marry, homophobia etc but he doesn't think it's comparable because interracial marriages and homosexuality etc involves consenting adults. In my opinion abortion involves a consenting adult, that's it.

I'm not saying they're the exact same thing but am I unreasonable to hope that one day we'll look back at the fact it was illegal in my country to have a choice about what we do with our own uterus?

Perhaps it is inconsistent across the Provinces of NI. I am not disputing that women have been denied a TFMR, just saying that MN is the first time I have come across this.

I am not really in touch with the legal side of things, but here is a link to circumstances where abortion in NI is legal. Mind boggling as to why there is disparity though.

www.fpa.org.uk/sites/default/files/northern-ireland-abortion.pdf

exactly penguins - the increased range of (judgement free) options makes it more likely to be a genuinely free and informed choice

It has to be up to the mother. She is the one who has to carry the (potential) child and then support it. It's barbaric, frankly. You are putting the imagined rights of cells which have no thoughts or feelings above those of people who do. That makes absolutely no sense whatsoever, and then once the kid is born, what would you, personally, do to help these people having condemned them to all of that? Nothing, I suspect.

People sometimes get pregnant by mistake. Pregnancy, labour and parenthood is rather a harsh punishment for that. It always makes me laugh when people (not just you, specifically) come out with the line about responsibility. Yes, let's punish people for irresponsible sexy time by giving them the most responsible task there is. What a great that idea that is.

The point concerning illegal abortions is that, if you ban abortion, people still have them. You are just making it more dangerous. That ok by you?

pmsl @ the 'that's not equal' comment - because it's like arguing male circumcision isn't equal because women don;t have penises

it isn't equal because MEN don't get pregnant ...therefore men never have to carry an unwanted pregnancy

Bumbley
We're back on logical fallacies, so answering a question with another isn't an answer. Avoiding the question isn't an answer. Strawman arguments are not the answer, nor argument by emotion. Burden of proof arguments are also not valid.
So, what we're left with is you having a go at other women for their life choices, choices which, at the end of the day are not the business of you or anybody else.
I am genuinely sorry that you cannot process many of the (logical) arguments put forward, eg. Patriachal society, religion, control of women etc. because I think that were you able to comprehend them, you may be able to provide a valid argument, but you seem unable to do so. We're not talking about control of mens reproduction, we're talking about our rights to control our own bodies. They really are different things.

My late fathers cousin was 17 when she got pg in the 1950s.
She didn't tell anyone, and went to a back street abortionist. She died in agony, alone on their kitchen floor of peritonitis.
Not uncommon, sadly.
She is the reason I find pro lifers stance so offensive.
Oh, The father? I assume he went on to live a long and happy life.
Because he was a man.

bumbley you know exactly what I'm asking. You are fully aware I am asking what support I would have received had I turned to a pro life organisation instead of a pro choice one. I didn't because I wanted impartial, balanced advice instead of agenda pushing and moralising at a difficult time.

You are the most disingenuous and offensive poster I have ever come across on this site.

I am not a vessel for carrying children as you and this government seem to think. I am an educated, intelligent woman who is a loving parent and I want the same rights I had when I was living in England.

enormouse, please don't feel you have to answer this here, but could i ask how much would being entitled to a free NHS abortion have helped? obviously i realise that that's not the only hurdle what with having to find the money, time and energy to travel and leave behind support networks etc. but on top of that having to go private when NI is within the UK seems appalling to me

Enormouse

Fuck, yeah.

madmum I live in a "bible belt" area of NI where even FP Clinics have been picketed over copper coil and they now refuse to fit them so you're shuffled off to the maternity hospital of all places. I wanted to stop myself from being in the position of needing an actual abortion but still had to jump through hoops.

"I am not a vessel for carrying children as you and this government seem to think. I am an educated, intelligent woman who is a loving parent and I want the same rights I had when I was living in England."

nf1 the more i hear the more truly bonkers it is. all this insane postulating and laws and doctors going to ridiculous lengths to avoid being on the wrong side of the law. all to avoid giving women the right to decide what happens to their own body

I am not a vessel for carrying children as you and this government seem to think. I am an educated, intelligent woman who is a loving parent and I want the same rights I had when I was living in England.
Now I luffs you a little bit too.

nf I was wondering if the more conservative areas would make things like this harder. Living in a large town I am immune from smaller back water towns/villages where something as basic as FP is frowned upon.

A friend of the family adopted a lovely baby girl, who apparently was born out of wedlock therefore the bm was hidden and then coerced to put baby up for adoption. It is unthinkable that in this day and age people still have attitudes like this.

petula it would have meant the world to me.

I would have been able to go to my gp and ask to be referred for one.

I wouldn't have had to budget for weeks and panic on the way there because I thought I might have made a mistake with my dates. Which would have pushed my fees up astronomically.

I wouldn't have worried about needing a general anaesthetic in case it would mean I wouldn't be able to travel on the day I had booked my flights.

I wouldn't have had to get up at 4.30 am to make my early flight and get home the same day.

I could have had a coil fitted at the same time without having to pay extra.

Most of all, I could have had my Dp with me to support me instead of having to travel alone. And be alone at the clinic.

Things are still tight moneywise at the moment.

Oh and I wouldn't have been panicked and stressed for weeks, barely being able to get out of bed and care for my dc because I was so worried about money and what I was going to do.

Bumbly

That whistling sound going over your head is the point...

If you save the child this con only be because you judge (rightly) that his life is worth more than the potential lives in the fridge.

Therefore whatever your reasons for being so virulently anti choice - it cannot logically be based on a belief that the embryo has the same rights as a living person- and is ,if were to try to be honest with yourself and others on this thread, based on seriously fucked up attitude to women sex and motherhood

KidLorne, "the imagined rights of cells" but it's not just cells we're talking about here - unless it's only the termination of very early pregnancy that you support? Or are you suggesting that we're all just 'bundles of cells'?

ghosty, laugh all you like but if a man and a woman have consensual sex and a pregnancy results, the woman gets to decide whether or not she wants to be a parent, the man does not. Now, you can argue (As people did) that this is the way it has to/should be but it is difficult to argue that it is fair or equal.

Brilliant posts Enormouse x

but it's NATURE Bumbley - are you going to blame women for the fact that biologically they have WOMBS now

your agenda is not very cleverly hidden - try harder

Can I also just add to your point a little? You are an intelligent adult in a supportive relationship and it did that to you.

Imagine what it does to the scared 15 year old school girl? I have a school friend who got pregnant at 18. She was in the middle of doing her A levels and going to University. In England, she had choices. Choices she could exercise independently and with the support she chose to utilise.

sorry enormouse, i wasn't clear there, i meant free nhs in england rather than having to pay private iyswim - you'd still have the travel etc but it's the entitlement that i'm thinking of

but thank you for putting into words how important it is that safe, free, local, agenda-free abortion services are freely available to women

gah, accidentally pressed post too early

but thank you for putting into words how important it is that safe, free, local, agenda-free abortion services are freely available to women. i can't describe how angry on behalf of you and other women in your position i am. i want to DO something (beyond the donations i make to abortion support and pregnancy advice services)

Exactly penguins my heart goes out to the young girls travelling alone. Having to carry that burden by themselves.

There was a girl, about 15 or 16 I recognised at the airport. She was so young and all alone. I bought her a packet of paracetamol and some snacks.

It's a turn of phrase. In lieu of a foetus having an opinion about the matter, the next best placed person to make a judgement is the... woman.

91% of abortions happen before 13 weeks. That's well before there is any chance of survival outside of the womb and before the foetus has any sort of self awareness. Even at 24 weeks the odds of survival are astonishingly small, and abortions at that stage overwhelmingly happen for health reasons. Until a foetus is able to make decisions and articulate thoughts I think we have to just take the mother as the next best authority. Pretty reasonable.

Obviously there has to be a cut off point, whether that is at conception, birth or somewhere in between, but to say that cut off point is even before a person is aware they are pregnant is absurd.

Come off it bumbley - the men aren't pregnant, so no, they do not get a say. And yes, that is fair. Men can casually have sex with 100 different women, with no worries about it impacting on their body, or their health. They can (and do) walk away from parenthood. They only thing they should not be able to do is force a woman to give birth to their child. Because, slavery.

Forcing women to have children they do not want is akin to treating them as slaves or farm animals.

Fuck, yeah.