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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Original poster

To hope we look back on this in horror?

674 replies

Fanfeckintastic · 03/02/2015 23:31

I'm in Ireland and recently watched a documentary about Irish women going to England for abortions because it's illegal over here. I was saying to DP that hopefully one day we'll be able to look back on this with the same horror we do at the fact interracial couples were once not allowed to marry, homophobia etc but he doesn't think it's comparable because interracial marriages and homosexuality etc involves consenting adults. In my opinion abortion involves a consenting adult, that's it.

I'm not saying they're the exact same thing but am I unreasonable to hope that one day we'll look back at the fact it was illegal in my country to have a choice about what we do with our own uterus?

OP posts:
wigglesrock · 06/02/2015 12:15

Abortion : Ireland's Guilty Secret - it's on the iplayer

Madmum24 · 06/02/2015 12:19

I haven't RTWT but I am surprised that posters are saying that termination for medical reasons is not allowed in NI, it does happen and I know of people who have had one (baby diagnosed with spina bifida) and I have been offered one myself for foetal abnormalities.

leedy · 06/02/2015 12:22

"That attitude did wonders to minimise unwanted pregnancies didn't it? Oh wait..........."

But it was alright because we could just lock the women concerned up in institutions and pretend it wasn't happening! Yay, the good old days!

Dawndonnaagain · 06/02/2015 12:28

Madmum that is not the experience of many on this and other threads.

Willferrellisactuallykindahot · 06/02/2015 12:36

Yes leedy and although 'murdering' a bunch of cells while in utero is just outright disgusting, apparently once they have developed into a baby and are outside of the womb, neglecting them the point of death and then chucking their bodies into mass graves is, apparently, a grey area.

Utter cunts.

bumbleymummy · 06/02/2015 12:43

Hazlenut - the cartoon isn't true. Here is a link to one organisation

KidLorne "Why do you think YOUR personal feelings about abortion are more important than the lives of the women who you so casually dismiss?"

Why do people who support abortion to term think that their personal feelings /the feelings of a pregnant woman trump the right to life of the foetus who is more than capable of surviving outside her? Why aren't you asking that? I'm not dismissing the lives of those women casually or otherwise but I'm not dismissing the life of the foetus either which some people seem happy to do only too readily.

Enormouse, I find it concerning that you had to ask me what support would have been available to you if you had kept the baby. I hope those organisations spoke to you about it as well. Surely you were aware of what the laws were in NI when you were speaking to them? It shouldn't have come as a surprise to you.

biro, I know you're really excited about the 'embryos in a fridge' question but it's a bit crap. Firstly, unless those embryos get implanted in a woman they're going to be destroyed anyway - they will never be a child. I would save the live child and that in no way makes me hypocritical.

For all the people who have 'the rage' about people who have the rape exemption well me not having it seems to give people 'the rage' as well so what difference does it make?

Penguins - RE how the MAP works - usually it inhibits or delays ovulation which reduces the likelihood of fertilisation. It can also prevent fertilisation by other methods too - how would that go against vdb's beliefs?

bumbleymummy · 06/02/2015 12:45

Madmum - your experience doesn't go along with what some people want to believe about Ireland and NI so they'll not believe you and be dismissive of you. FWIW I believe you.

Madmum24 · 06/02/2015 12:45

Dawn I have previously seen on threads about posters saying TFMR is not allowed in NI which has genuinely shocked me. I am on a local (in NI) group for parents with children with various health conditions, all of which were offered termination on discovery of the foetal abnormality. When I was in labour I was asking my midwife about it, and she said that midwives are given a choice whether to assist in the procedure/after care. She personally chose not to.

I am perplexed then as to why it seems to be readily available to some and not to others?

PenguinsandtheTantrumofDoom · 06/02/2015 12:55

People get annoyed with you for reasons other than not believing in a rape exemption Bumbley. And I am fairly sure that you knew that.

People who believe in a rape exemption annoy me because they believe in removing the bodily autonomy of women without actually thinking through an internally consistent argument about it.

Dawndonnaagain · 06/02/2015 12:55

Madmum I can only go on what the law states and the fact is, the law in NI states that abortion is illegal. Maybe you were offered a termination, but I have a friend who really quite recently was forced to carry to term. In Northern Ireland. There have been news stories, on a regular basis of terminations not being an option in NI and a programme this week. Your experience is otherwise, so be it, but as I say, the fact is that what the law says is different to your experience. It would perhaps be better if in fact your experience was an overall, but one or two pockets of dissent do not a case make.

Enormouse · 06/02/2015 12:58

Bumbley I am well aware of the support available from the pro choice organisations but not the pro life ones. As far as I'm aware they stand outside the clinics, making women feel guilty. So yes, I am genuinely interested in what they actually do for women. I am also aware of what other support is available to me, I already have children

And yes I am aware of the legal position here in NI. But not all the ramifications and difficulties till I was actually in a position where I had to travel for a procedure

I find you to be disingenuous, patronising and completely facetious. So please take your faux concern and shove it.

MoominKoalaAndMiniMoom · 06/02/2015 13:00

bumbley equally we could say that you're only believing madmum because it goes along with what you want to believe.

Several other posters in the past on other threads have been through horrendous experiences trying to get TFMR in Ireland and NI - are you dismissing their experiences and saying you don't believe them?

bumbleymummy · 06/02/2015 13:00

Well penguins, they get annoyed because they don't like my opinions but they have explicitly expressed anger at the fact that I don't agree with it in cases of rape. Clearly though, even if I did, I would be attacked for being inconsistent or hypocritical instead. Perhaps your 'rage' at them hasn't been properly thought through? Would you really think it was better if they disagreed with abortion in the case of rape as well?

KidLorneRoll · 06/02/2015 13:02

I'm not dismissing anything Bumbley. I'm saying the choice should be up to the mother. It's her body, her life and she is the one best placed to make any sort of decision and it's her feelings which are more important than any misplaced moral judgements.

I'm not making any sort of comment on whether I think abortion in situation x,y or z is the right thing to do, I'm simply saying unless it's your body under discussion it's none of your goddamn business. I respect anyone who says they hate abortion, but this is such a complex, emotional issue that you simply cannot, with any kind of justification, try to take away a woman's own choice and control over her body.

Also, you are still evading the issue about how banning abortion doesn't actually make it go away.

MoominKoalaAndMiniMoom · 06/02/2015 13:04

Evading the difficult questions is a particular skill of bumbleys, kid.

bumbleymummy · 06/02/2015 13:07

Moomin, are you dismissing madmum's experience?

Enormouse, nothing faux about it. I've linked to one organisaton upthread. If you'd looked for support from them it does exist but it probably isn't as well publicised/funded as the 'pro-choice' organisations. I know that the university my friend goes to there was amazing when she went back to finish her degree after an unplanned pregnancy. I hope the pro-choice organisation talked you through that as well. It would be good to know that they're making sure people have all the information to fully consider it and make an informed choice.

PetulaGordino · 06/02/2015 13:10

women's control over their own personal reproduction is a cornerstone in achieving equality

Damnautocorrect · 06/02/2015 13:11

Madmum, i can only go by what I've seen on the program as my families ROI. But there was a lady on the program who had to come over to England for a termination as her child was diagnosed at 20 weeks with abnormalities which are incompatible with life. So it sounds like the care is not consistent throughout Northern Ireland.

bumbleymummy · 06/02/2015 13:11

Kid, it's not just the woman's body though. The woman's body is still intact after the procedure.

What do you want me to say about illegal abortion Kid? I don't agree with it either. Lots of things are illegal and they still happen - does that mean we should legalise them?

PenguinsandtheTantrumofDoom · 06/02/2015 13:12

"Perhaps your 'rage' at them hasn't been properly thought through? Would you really think it was better if they disagreed with abortion in the case of rape as well?"

No Bumbley. I would think that they were consistent. That isn't the same as thinking that opinion is better. An opinion can be internally consistent, but still totally and utterly and unspeakably wrong.

And my anger has been thought through. I am bloody angry at any person who feels that he or she can sit in moral judgment on a woman and judge that the circumstances in which she got pregnant are morally clean enough for her to deserve an abortion.

Enormouse · 06/02/2015 13:14

Are you implying that I made an uninformed choice bumbley?

All the help and pastoral support in the world from a pro life organisation would not have altered the fact that I would have 3 children under 4 at a time when I should be focusing on the older two and concentrating on my academic career. You know so I can support the children I have and not have to rely on benefits to make ends meet?

Additionally my eldest has additional needs that require a lot of time and support. I have to consider the quality of life and being able to make ends meet for my already here dc.

bumbleymummy · 06/02/2015 13:15

Petula, interesting. What control do men have over their own reproduction? There was a thread about that the other day. Most people seem to think that it's the woman who has control and ultimately makes the decision. That's not exactly equal is it?

PenguinsandtheTantrumofDoom · 06/02/2015 13:15

Just to take the discussion in a slightly different direction, I wanted to comment on how important the availability of termination can be to women who don't choose to use it.

I had an unplanned pregnancy and eventually decided to go ahead. But I would have felt like a desperate rabbit in a trap had I had no choice. The fact that there was a choice for me to make, as an adult who was trusted to make decisions about my body and my future, was enormously important to me. I struggle to understand that there are countries within the UK that deny their women that right.

bumbleymummy · 06/02/2015 13:18

Enormouse, You asked me what support you would have received as if you didn't know. Now you're saying you made an informed choice. Only you know what information you got and whether it was all the information that was available or if, in fact, there was anything that would have made you make a different decision at all.

Baddz · 06/02/2015 13:19

I have had 2 terminations.
I was married and (for the second) already had a child.
My body.
My choice.
Forcing women to have children they do not want is akin to treating them as slaves or farm animals.
It's a hugely offensive idea to force women to be mothers against their will.