to think sharing explicit anti-meat eating photos on Facebook is completely abhorrent and unnecessary? [Title edited by MNHQ]

[WiiUnfit]

I'm sat here eating a naice ham sandwich, scrolling through & minding my own business when WHAM, a picture of a sleeping puppy being carved like a joint of meat on my newsfeed. Poster is an old school friend and a (recent) vegetarian.

I mean seriously, I don't share photos of great big juicy steaks to promote my status as a meat-eater?

Bad analogy. No one wrote to the meat eaters like you vegetarian. And her reaction was to agree with you. Point not made.
If describing meat eating as killing is 'name calling' then surely calling non-eaters crazy loonies is too? Not that I mind, I'm aware it comes from a place of ignorance.

Yes I know a lot of meat eaters don't kill the meat themselves..
But I think you are still equally culpable if you pay someone to kill for you!

For all those veggies and vegans, if a cow died of natural causes, what would you think of eating that?

I wouldn't eat it, not because I see it as unethical but because I dislike the taste of meat. I became vegetarian as I stopped liking the taste of meat not for ethical reasons. I became vegan literally overnight because I educated myself about the egg and dairy industries. I spent a long, hard night researching information and watching videos and the decision was made purely based on ethics. I still crave a fried egg sandwich now and then though!

If we tightened up the rules considerably when it comes to the keeping and slaughtering of livestock,meat consumption would reduce whjch would have an beneficial ethical and environmental impact.

It would certainly help the animals in terms of welfare and also push the price of meat up to a level where it would become a luxury item for the average consumer.

babyhammock I ate meat, dairy and eggs for over 40 years and honestly didn't miss any of it once my decision was made. As I said above, I occasionally get a craving for a fried egg (if I'm hungover) but it's easier than you think. The hardest thing is avoiding egg and dairy that's been needlessly added to foodstuffs. Cheese-free pizza is not as bad as you think if it's loaded with veg and extra sauce. Ahimsa dairy is probably the most ethical dairy you can get so that's a huge step in the right direction. Having said that, the cows are still artificially inseminated and the calves are still removed, albeit much later than at other dairy farms. The no slaughter policy is fantastic and the dairy cows get to retire and enjoy the rest of their lives naturally.

Bad analogy. No one wrote to the meat eaters like you vegetarian. And her reaction was to agree with you. Point not made.
If describing meat eating as killing is 'name calling' then surely calling non-eaters crazy loonies is too? Not that I mind, I'm aware it comes from a place of ignorance.

I assume that was to me?

Okay then, vegetarians are killers and hypocrites.

Point made now?

baby agreed that she was being hypocritical but many vegetarians would dispute that whilst still berating meat-eaters for causing death in order to satisfy their tastebuds. If people find it hard to give up cheese and chocolate then why don't they understand that others find it hard to give up meat?

Not sure who called us veg*ns crazy loonies on this thread but certainly I've seen the word killers bandied about quite a bit.

Flight I will do it, I guess I'm in the transition...and I know how lame that must sound. But you're right too about the fact that it's hidden in so many vegetarian foods....x

itsbetter of course its rude to call anyone a crazy loony. Not sure why that justifies you calling people murderers though. Ever heard of being the bigger person?

Anyway my whole point was that you won't convert many people by being so insulting and aggressive, that doesn't seem to bother you so we can assume you don't care if people become vegetarian, you just want to offend meat eaters.

I think the frustration that itsbetterthanabox is the refusal to accept that the way we treat animals is fundamentally wrong and not justifiable, and not that people find it hard to stop doing something... If that makes sense

Sorry I meant to say the frustration thatitsbetterinabox feels...

What some vegetarians/vegans seem to assume is that everyone who eats meet just doesn't care about animal welfare and has never internally debated the topic. I decided quite a few years ago that I was not interested in becoming vegetarian, but I would consider the production methods of the food I eat. We've got our own chooks for eggs, and I buy my meat from a farmer who you buy the animals when they are young, and he raises them (in excellent conditions) until they are ready for slaughter. All of the red meat and pork meat we eat at home is from him. We do eat a lot less meat at home now because of it. Unfortunately I haven't yet found a good source for chicken (I have seven dogs who eat a raw food diet so we go through a lot of it), but I'm working on that.

Putting up propaganda on a facebook profile about becoming vegan is not going to get me to change my diet. Put up a petition about improving farming and food production to higher ethical standards and I'll support that. Post a really yummy looking vegetarian or vegan recipe and we'll probably have a meat free dinner that night.

There's more than one way to get people to change their habits.

baby It's not lame at all x some people take years to transition, not everyone can (or wants to) do it overnight. Some people give up smoking by gradually reducing and then taking the final plunge. Others go cold turkey and can stop straight away. The important thing is that we do eventually 'get there'.

I agree with better that it's frustrating when people can't/won't see what is wrong with eating a sentient being especially one that has probably lived a miserable life. I don't agree that the way to make them 'see the light' is to insult and berate them because that will never work and will make them switch off altogether. Then there will be no hope at all of ever changing their viewpoint.

The word killing is not an insult. This is what I'm confused by. That's not an attempt to insult it's just describing it as is instead of euphemism which separates us from realities.
It is possible to attempt to change people bit by bit and also discuss realities.
A lot of veggies and vegans became that that way because of seeing videos of slaughter houses or learning that killing is morally wrong and we do not have that right. So there are people that are helped by bring told the truth.

Sometimes the will to change comes from the most unlikely source. Never say never ...

Have people heard of Esther the Wonder Pig?

www.facebook.com/estherthewonderpig

"Persuaded by a friend who wanted to find a home for a young “micro-pig,” Toronto couple Derek Walter and Steve Jenkins welcomed piglet Esther into their lives. But it soon became apparent that they had all been misled—this was no micro-pig. Esther grew bigger every day, and soon she towered over the couple’s two dogs.

Derek and Steve surmised that Esther had been born on a commercial farm and had been cast aside because she was a “runt.” But if the couple was surprised to learn that their new companion animal had likely been destined for a dinner plate, they were even more surprised to see how similar Esther is to their dogs. She easily picked up how to sit for a treat and even how to open the refrigerator door to sniff out something yummy, such as an apple. She loves to play tug-of-war and tag and chew her toys, and naptime means finding the nearest dog or human to snuggle up to.

Even though it soon became apparent how big Esther would get and how much care she would need, Derek and Steve couldn’t bear to part with her. As they put it, “This isn’t Esther’s fault, she didn’t ask for the life she was given. We have the chance to provide her with the life she deserves, not the one she was bred for. What kind of people would we be to deny her that?”

As Esther continued to grow, she continued to grow closer to her dads. And soon Derek and Steve realized that the animals they had always called “dinner” weren’t so different from the animals they called “friends.” Before long, both men went vegan"

It is lame though
I was in the supermarket (waitrose) yesterday trying to find a vegan vegetable pie... Couldn't find one and ended up buying just a normal vegetarian one which I then felt bad about but still did it because it was easier :(, telling myself I would be more organised next time and find somewhere that does.
I wish the supermarkets would wisen up to vegan in the same way they have about vegetarian...

And agree with itsbetterinabox about not sugar coating things.

It was seeing footage of a slaughterhouse at 9 that turned me veggie and Earthlings (which I couldn't bare to watch through) made me decide that one way or another vegan was the only proper way forward x

fight

I didn't say you did, I know you were just using things as examples

You seem much too rational and calm to do otherwise

I was just commenting on the fact that the only people who have ever had a go at me have been meat eaters,

I don't usually post on these types of threads as they tend to get out of hand with both "sides" being as bad as the other

But I do take offence at the complaints of some people who have had "militant" veggies or vegans (never met one but I'm sure they exist) critiquing what they eat, as if it never happens the other way

The word 'killing' isn't an insult.

Calling someone a murderer when they've never committed murder is a little rude.

I'll watch videos of slaughter houses and battery farming - in fact I have watched them; many of them. I still choose to eat meat. If you disagree with that, that's fine - but if I haven't been rude to you, please do me the same courtesy. That's all I'm asking.

I was just commenting on the fact that the only people who have ever had a go at me have been meat eaters

< assumes armchair psychologist mode >

Redirecting guilt, justifying their meat eating - anyone who is comfortable with their choices doesn't feel the need to do that.

baby It's incredibly hard to find ready made food that's suitable for vegans - M&S and the worst for that, they seem to put egg or milk in everything even falafels ffs!

Linda Mccartney foods do some vegan pies including a mushroom and ale one (I haven't tried it so cannot personally recommend). The Rosemary and red onion sausages are really nice though. I know larger Tesco store supply quite a few LM products.

It is!
But I guess a good thing about it is that you almost have to end up making it yourself...which is obviously something we should do more of and is going to be healthier too.
I always find holidays are hard. Being vegetarian is difficult but vegan even more so.

If you fancy doing a bit of home pie baking then Jus Rol pastry is your friend! The only non-vegan pastries are the All Butter and Sweet Shortcrust ones.

www.jusrol.co.uk/productRange.aspx

The cinnamon swirls and pain au chocolat are definitely vegan, I think the Apple Danish are too.

Holland and Barrett sometimes have a decent stock of vegan pies in "chicken" and mushroom, peppered "steak". They are also pretty good for other meat substitutes too.

The problem I find in supermarkets is they now tend to carry a massive range of Quorn which means they have cut back on a lot of the Linda McCartney stuff. A lot of the own brand " meat" chunks now seem to have egg in too :(

On the bright side, apparently Quorn are going to start making vegan stuff in the UK,.and IKEA is going to start selling vegan meatballs....

Thank you I will :)
Have you tried booja booja hunky punky chocolate ice cream? It's healthy vegan and totally delicious.

ItsAll The H&B sounds like Frys - the peppered 'steak' is quite tasty. I always pick up a selection of their stuff at Vegfest - some of it is really good. Last year I had a hotdog from the Vegusto stall and it was amazing < slavering at the memory >

Agree with the rise of Quorn - Waitrose seem to have stopped stocking Linda Mc sausages in favour of Quorn sausages vegan Quorn has been available in the US for a while now. On the plus side it offers more choice for both vegetarians and meat reducers.

baby Vanilla Swedish Glace icecream is really nice too, even my omni friends lap it up especially when served with my vegan cheesecake My son bought me the Booja Booja gourmet selection box for Christmas and they are amazing. I can only eat one or two a day as they are very rich and my tastebuds have changed massively since becoming vegan. Just as well really considering the price of them!

www.ocado.com/webshop/product/Booja-Booja-Dairy-Free-Gourmet-Selection/71345011?gclid=CJaPqcDmwMMCFWSWtAodQ18AwQ&kpid=71345011

Yabu. So you want to pretend tge meat you bought in a neat, hygienic box in sainsbury didn't involve any suffering by the creature whose body you're eating?

I've just been on the vagusto website... Looks really good

Vegusto!