to think sharing explicit anti-meat eating photos on Facebook is completely abhorrent and unnecessary? [Title edited by MNHQ]

[WiiUnfit]

I'm sat here eating a naice ham sandwich, scrolling through & minding my own business when WHAM, a picture of a sleeping puppy being carved like a joint of meat on my newsfeed. Poster is an old school friend and a (recent) vegetarian.

I mean seriously, I don't share photos of great big juicy steaks to promote my status as a meat-eater?

Those are not how animals are killed and eaten though.

I know, just pointing out the circumstances when it could be considered ethical imo.

I still think it is immoral though in the same way if I thought it was kinder to a human to 'put them out of their misery' or found a body then consuming it would be wrong.

Only because we have been conditioned to think that it is wrong. We agree to have our pets put down when their suffering is too extreme. We do it because we love them and it would be ethically wrong to let them continue to suffer. If we do it for our relatives we can be prosecuted.

Eating humans brings its own problems because we are dirty beasts with easily communicable diseases. That's why cannibalism died a death (pardon the pun) because people contracted dreadful diseases rather than because it was seen as wrong within those communities.

^

• sorry, I think I misunderstood part of your post

I do not think that is the only reason why nearly all cultures have not eaten human flesh.
Eating primates has the disease issue but people still do it.
I think it is because of a sense of morality that people don't eat people.
I don't see animals as different and I've seen no justification that it is.

I agree that most societies don't see it as acceptable. With the availability of cheap and plentiful animal meat there is no reason to eat human flesh but I believe it was quite prevalent in the middle ages.

More recently, some natives of Papua New Guinea were routinely eating human flesh until the 1950's/60's as part of funeral rituals. It stopped due to a prion disease similar to CJD (kuru).

Many cultures in the past have eaten the flesh of their enemies.

When it's a case of life or death people's morality goes out of the window. Donner party, the Andes crash, siege of Leningrad, prisoner of war camps, North Korea, China during the Mao regime - the list goes on.

It's not down to availability of animal meat. We haven't had access to that for a lot of time in history and large parts of the world now don't eat it or don't have access to it. They don't begin eating each other.
We don't need meat and it's only in recent times in rich countries that people have seen it as so very important and to be eaten three times a day.
We also have choice as thoughtful beings and we don't have to act on base urges.
I think life or death situations are clearly completely different. People act in ways they never would otherwise out of fear.

We haven't had access to that for a lot of time in history and large parts of the world now don't eat it or don't have access to it. They don't begin eating each other.

How do we know that though? Who's to say that people aren't eating dear old granny instead of burying her. It's seen as taboo and rarely people admit to going against societal norms, doesn't mean it isn't happening ....

Okay, that's not really what I think is going on - just a bit of joking around or is it

Meat used to be seen as a luxury and only the rich could afford it; animals were not intensively farmed for cheap meat. Fast forward to now and a burger for 99p is the clarion call.

We also have choice as thoughtful beings and we don't have to act on base urges.

I think it has been ingrained so much that people genuinely panic at the thought of a day, let alone a life, without meat. People eat meat because they enjoy the taste and don't think further than that.

A poster linked to Earthlings on the Halal thread. I wish I was rich enough to pay every omnivore to watch that film from beginning to end so they could see what they are buying into with commercial meat/dairy/egg production. I've never made it past 30 minutes and I already know what to expect as I've watched quite a few videos along the same lines.

People either don't know or they don't want to know - sometimes both.

Earthlings link:

vimeo.com/95571304

I don't think all omnivores are blind to the fact that their choice to eat meat isn't ethical - I'm fully aware that, in eating meat, I am doing something unethical. Many of us do unethical things every day. If people choose to judge me for that, that's their call - I won't lose sleep over it.

Make of that what you will.

Great post FlightOrFight

I can't get my head around the fact we all know the shameful cruelty that occurs hourly in our abbatoirs,yet it's shrugged off and seen as the norm.

Some very good posts here

I eat meat, but not much of it because I think about the animals' lives, and same with milk - I only consume organic really now

The thing is that I think some vegans and vegetarians ram the animal cruelty thing so much down peoples throats - accusing them of murder, selfishness, killing innocent tiny baby animals etc - that instead of people taking a step back and saying "actually, if I just didn't eat meat one day a week, would make a difference and that would be my contribution", instead they just take a look at these loony vegans spouting extreme views and just don't do anything at all.

We all know that meat is a dead animal but it's so engrained in our culture to eat meat that we as a species will never give it up completely. But how about instead of these stark images and reaction provoking words a softer approach was taken? It worked for me

The other thing is that many people cook using meat as a centre-point to a recipe, and a lot of veggie food seems to use cheese as a centre point or mushrooms. There is so much more choice and delicious veggie food out there that perhaps also restaurants and supermarkets need to make a small shift in their approach - even if it's to do half meat, half veggie dishes

The thing is that I think some vegans and vegetarians ram the animal cruelty thing so much down peoples throats - accusing them of murder, selfishness, killing innocent tiny baby animals etc - that instead of people taking a step back and saying "actually, if I just didn't eat meat one day a week, would make a difference and that would be my contribution", instead they just take a look at these loony vegans spouting extreme views and just don't do anything at all.

You've hit the nail on the head there Queen

Vegetarians and vegans need to accept that a lot of people are not going to give up meat/animal products entirely and concentrate on encouraging meat reduction. That is at least a small 'win' for food animals whilst making people realise that they can have a perfectly good meal without using meat.

A couple of my friends signed up to Meat Free Monday when I became vegan. One of them now only uses meat 3 days a week instead of 7. If that was replicated throughout Britain it would have a huge impact on the amount of animals slaughtered for food. I'm very proud of her for what she has achieved, I don't berate her that she's "not doing enough" and needs to stop eating it altogether because I know that's never going to happen.

It's a bit like encouraging someone to stop drinking during the week and only having a couple of glasses at the weekend. Lots of people would be able to do that but would find it impossible to give up drinking altogether.

Vegans who berate vegetarians are my pet hate. I've even heard them described as being worse than meat eaters - WTF? There's also vegans who berate other vegans because they are "not doing it for the right reasons" (eg their own health rather than for animal welfare). Do these people honestly think that a cow give a shiny shit why someone doesn't eat them?

It's always the case that those who shout loudest and longest are the ones that get heard, and that is generally the more militant veggies/vegans. Probably everyone has heard of PETA because of their shock tactics but not many people take them seriously. How many people have heard of Vegan Outreach who do very good work but without the publicity stunts.

Some vegetarians and vegans need to take a long hard look at themselves and see that they are doing far more harm than good to the meat-free movement.

Great posts Queen and FightOrFlight. Some of the responses I've had on here have given me more food for thought (excuse the pun) than the image I saw.

Now to see if I can reduce my meat-intake...

Incidentally, what's quorn mince like in a chilli? Wondering if I can slip it to DH without him noticing!

That is, the responses where logical arguments and reasoning were applied rather than the ones calling me a murderer and questioning my ethical / moral values

Not sure about quorn mince to be honest as I've never tried it (it contains egg). I would have thought that as long as the texture is similar then you'll probably get away with it as the flavour comes from the chilli itself. One thing that makes it different is that you won't get any gristly bits!

I use soya mince to make shepherds pie, spag bol etc. but it does tend to have a less 'meaty' texture than meat mince. I suspect Quorn will have a better/firmer texture though.

Another option would be to do a half-and-half with mince and quorn. That way you are halving the amount of meat in the dish but not compromising on the texture.

My dh can spot a meat free option from a 10 mile range.

I'd be happy to cut my meat intake but its the all or nothing attitude from militant vegetarians and vegans that makes me think 'why should I?'.

After seeing some of tthe more reasonable posts here, I'm going to cut my meat intake down to once or twice a weeK. I'll never choose to be vegetarian, but I will cut down if it's better for health and a little more ethical.

to all the people thinking of cutting down on meat, that's brilliant

I've cut down and rarely eat meat at lunchtimes. I've even persuaded DH to eat the odd vegan meal. Pineapple curry, veg chilli...

I just don't think we should have to water it down though.
Calling some one who kills a murderer is accurate not crazy.
I genuinely find it shocking that you'd consider eating more meat because some vegans do activism. It's so child like.
Calling killing what it is isn't not using logic and reason you just argue that because we are saying things that you don't want to hear.
I don't know anyone who cares about animal welfare that doesn't advocate people eating less meat it's just they also suggest eating none at all too!
Saying we have to water down our views is like when people say feminists give feminism a bad name. It's just an attempt to undermine arguments you don't want to actually engage with.

You don't have to water down your views, itsbetter, but if you can't get your point across without insulting someone (and calling someone a murderer is insulting, by the way), you're not going to convert people to the cause, are you?

Bit of a catch 22 that in order to stop people killing you can't tell them that their killing!

I don't think there's anything unethical about eating meat. Of all the omnivorous animals, we're the only ones who even care about the feelings of the animals we kill. We can choose to eat meat that hasn't suffered in life or death (if we can afford it) because we can choose to be more benevolent than other carnivorous species.

its but they're not killing. They're eating an animal that someone else has killed, and one person stopping isn't going to stop the animals being killed. Far better to go higher up the chain and call them killers and murderers - or, to actually endear people to the cause by calmly and politely pointing out the benefits to not eating meat, and the ethical issues you feel there are, so that a higher number of people will consider reducing the amount of meat they eat, or stopping completely. If there isn't the demand, there won't be the supply, and animals will stop being killed.

As we're not actually physically killing the animals ourselves, calling us murderers isn't really accurate.

If someone came up to me, called me a murderer and told me I was cruel and unethical for eating meat, I'd laugh at them and go and get a bacon sandwich.
If someone came up to me and started a polite discussion about the benefits of vegetarianism, I'd actually pay attention, consider what they were saying and potentially change their habits.

Itsbetter technically meat eaters aren't murderers - they eat the result of something that someone else has murdered

I don't think you understand what a huge shift it is for most people to give up meat - it seems almost an impossible task to overhaul their beliefs, their cooking skills, their choices when out and the freedom of choice in being able to eat whatever they want.

No one is saying that they will deliberately increase their meat intake, they're saying that if the level of abuse they get from animal rights activists when they eat meat 3 times a day or just once a week is exactly the same, why would they bother to make the effort?

If every one of those just cut down on their meat intake by a bit, it would make a huge difference overall. And then they may decide to cut down a bit more. And then, maybe after that cut it out entirely. Isn't that what you are campaigning for? Isn't it better than they change behaviour just a bit at a time and are supported and encouraged in a positive way?

How you think that you'll get people to change their behaviour by being insulting and calling them childish, when actually you're the one being very childish, is completely counterproductive and defeats the exact thing that you're trying to achieve

Thank you Fight and Wii

I don't actually care what anybody eats but I do understand your point itsbetter

If it's something you strongly believe in