To raise my eyebrow at DD's school 'punishment'?

[chaosagain]

DD is 5 and in year 1. She had to miss 10 minutes of her morning playtime today after getting a yellow card yesterday and then doing the same thing again shortly afterwards. Her offence: reading a book when she was being asked to do something else/tidy up.

I get that she needs to learn to listen and I also get that it can be important that we (are seen) to support school decisions to her.. but REALLY? Sitting out of playtime is a big deal to her and the first time she's not been on the 'green card' for her behaviour this year. She was going to have this 'time out' with 2 other boys who each had 5 mins for fighting. She was really worried about it this morning, trying to find a way to not go to school etc.

She and I talked about how you just have to face things that are a little bit worrying and understand that there are consequences to your behaviour. The teacher was asking you to do things and you didn't do them. She told me that the book she was reading was just so good that she didn't hear the teacher. I get frustrated by this complete absorption of hers at home, but also recognise that she just doesn't hear me unless I go and make physical contact by touching her hand, shoulder etc.

I don't think this is worth taking up with the school and we should probably help her chalk it up to life experience but I keep thinking: 'can it be right to discipline a child (at 5) for getting lost in a book/for READING?!'

I do know what you mean. Some children can get very absorbed in things and do need a little bit more of a reminder to pay attention. I teach this age group (I teach YR,1 and 2) and would certainly not give this sanction for such a small misdemeanour especially if 2 other people were given 5 mins for fighting. I do very occasionally ask children to stay in at playtime but not very often.

All I can think of is that it was clear to the teacher that she had heard the instruction but refused to comply and then did that once again. Why don't you go and ask? If you genuinely think that she doesn't hear instructions go and mention it to the teacher, not to complain about the punishment but just to make the teacher aware.

hackmum, if you have 30 5 year olds in a class they do need to learn to listen and follow instructions. How would a class work if the children played for the entire day and if they didn't want to tidy up they just ignored you?

OP you've said a few times now that the punishment didn't work and that she quite enjoyed it, and is looking forward to more of the same.

Don't worry about this. The teacher will come to realise it and swap the punishment to something that will work.

They might go to pre-school, jamaisjedors, but school starting age in France is also 6.

www.nfer.ac.uk/nfer/index.cfm?9B1C0068-C29E-AD4D-0AEC-8B4F43F54A28

Hi Hackmum, (just in case it continues) my DD is a dreamer. She gets so absorbed in things. IMO there's a huge difference between wilful disobedience and not physically hearing things because you're too interested in what you're doing.

My daughter's school recognises but also recognises that she's a bright girl who can still finish work on time, despite starting late. PT meeting quote from teacher "It's not a problem, the world needs dreamers or you'd have no artists or authors". They put in place things to help (seated her where the teacher could tap her to let her know they'd changed tasks, get another child to prompt her etc). Four years and four supportive teachers later, her ability to recognise changing tasks is improving (very slowly). They do not punish her, but try and help her develop her listening skills (as do we at home). If they'd had a different attitude she may have improved more quickly, but her school life would have been a misery.

Has her hearing been checked?

.. and pre-school not compulsory in France as it is in other places.

chaos, if you really feel this is an issue for your dd go and talk to the teacher. I would welcome that information from a parent of a child in my class and mention it to other people working in the class so that they can adapt their approach.

Your daughter hasn't done as she was asked and has been given a (perfectly reasonable) punishment which she is bothered by. Fingers crossed she'll put 2 and 2 together and do as she's told next time.

Why exactly are you raising your eyebrow at it? What do YOU think the teacher should have done?

Last post I promise, the teacher will then also be able to give you a bit more of a context to the situation. If your DD never usually gets in trouble the teacher will remember what happened and be able to tell you.

Sorry Hackmum, my message was for Choas.

I can't think where my DD gets her inattention from .

I'm a teacher and also wasn't aware that we're allowed to keep children in at playtime as a punishment, Brightideas. Where can I read about this?

Raising my eyebrows at OP...

I'm a teacher and also wasn't aware that we're allowed to keep children in at playtime as a punishment,

Really?!

I think the word 'not' is missing from List's post.

I agree with Beryl about getting her ears tested.

The OP says "I get frustrated by this complete absorption of hers at home, but also recognise that she just doesn't hear me unless I go and make physical contact by touching her hand, shoulder etc"

Yes, I'd like the reference or proof that it's illegal to make a child miss minutes of break or lunchtime. It's part of the behaviour code of most schools, and it's unlike OFSTED to miss an oportunity to have a go if it is not allowed.

If she has a hearing problem, it would be pretty severe if the OP has to physically touch her in order to get her attention.

My DS1 suffered quite badly from glue ear, but even at its worst he could still hear me when I raised my voice.

Ok, that makes sense!

Schools are NOT ALLOWED to restrict play times as punishment - whatever the 'crime' (reading vs listening/ tidying up, not completing work, etc.). It's wrong.
I'm a teacher. We all know this. Is her teacher new?

We don't all know this! I do this (pretty rarely, I have to say as I have other systems in place) and have been teaching forever. It's part of our whole school behaviour policy.

Can you tell us where you got your information?

Rollonthesummer: I'm just wondering whether the teacher checked that she'd heard the warning. And I'm wondering if there was nothing wilful, nothing defiant about her behaviour. When she reads (a pretty new skill that takes her a lot of concentration) and when she watches telly I could stand next to her and shout 'I'll give you a massive bag of sweets if you stand on one leg' and she just wouldn't hear me. Her dad is like this - the opposite of inbuilt multi tasking skill. I'd have liked the teacher to walk over to her, touch her shoulder and ask her again before giving her the first punishment she's ever had in her school experience so far.

I would also like it to have been explained to her really clearly as to why she was in trouble. In her view she was in trouble for reading (I explained that it sounded to me like she was in trouble for not listening).

I think the whole experience has devalued the behavioural system for her. I don't think she heard the chance to rectify her behaviour and felt she was punished for something they spend lots of time trying to get them all to do. It was confusing. And now it seems, she doesn't care so much about being in trouble.

BUT I wasn't there. I don't know what actually happened and I'll back the teacher (having been clear that it wasn't for reading) because I think that's important. Maybe the teacher was just having a rough day, she's as human as the rest of us and I know I couldn't do her job!

I think I'm over thinking it now!

Beryl - I'm sure she can hear. When she's not either reading or watching telly she hears fine but genuinely doesn't seem to compute or recognise spoken input when doing either of those two things...

Good point it'sgoingtoreindeer. She was all whipped up into a mass of worry this morning. She tried to plead that she was ill, was in tears, barely ate breakfast.. But then if it was tidy up time presumably it was the end of the day, so the opportunity wasn't there for same day punishment..

My Dd is the same now at 8 you have to say her name 2/3 times and she will then 'hear you'- She gets totally absorbed in the book . TV can be on and she just doesn't get distracted. When she was younger she was so concentrating on reading that it diddn't get to her and we had to touch her and she would switch back into our world.
Unreasonable IMO

Found a Government document, Behaviour and Discipline in schools dated Feb 2014

Schools should have in place a range of options and rewards to reinforce and
praise good behaviour, and clear sanctions for those who do not comply with the school’s behaviour policy. These will be proportionate and fair responses that may vary according to the age of the pupils, and any other special circumstances that affect the pupil.
22.
When poor behaviour is identified, sanctions should be implemented consistently and fairly in line with the behaviour policy. Good schools will have a range of disciplinary measures clearly communicated to school
staff, pupils and parents. These can include:

A verbal reprimand.

Extra work or repeating unsatisfactory work until it meets the required standard.

The setting of written tasks as punishments, such as writing lines or an essay.

Loss of privileges for instance the loss of a prized responsibility or not being able to participate in a non-uniform day (sometimes referred to as ‘mufti’ days).

Missing break time.

Detention including during lunch time, after school and at weekends.

School based community service or imposition of a task such as picking up litter or weeding school grounds; tidying a classroom; helping clear up the dining hall after meal times; or removing graffiti.

Regular reporting including early morning reporting; scheduled uniform and other behaviour checks; or being placed “on report” for behaviour monitoring

In more extreme cases schools may use temporary or permanent exclusion.

So, not illegal?

It would still be worth while to get her hearing checked if you think the teacher should have yo physically touch DD each time she needs her to pay attention. I'm not sure how practical that would be? Could she have some type of processing issue?