To think he could own up to making an actual decision?

[riverriver]

A bit of background: I've been ill and told DH I wouldn't be cooking dinners, and we agreed to get take away for a couple days, which he would drive out and get. But then DH got ill too, but not as bad as me (I wasn't able to stand or even sit for more than a few minutes at time, he'd been sitting up all day). Here's an approximate transcript of our conversation the other night:

Me: "DH, are you feeling up to driving for take away tonight?"
DH: "I dunno."
Me: "If not, I could make myself some soup and help you put on some fish sticks. But I can't do much more than that, so you'd have to help cook your dinner."
DH: silence
Me (after a while): "DH? We need to talk about dinner. Are you up to getting take way or should we cook?"
[cycle through the last two lines a few times, until...]
DH: "I'm feeling pretty bad. I just can't think."
Me: "Shall I start some fish sticks for you? Or would you like something else?"
DH: "I could probably get take away."
Me (getting frustrated): "Could probably? Can you or can't you? I'm not going to tell you to get take away when you feel bad, because I can't make the decision of whether or not you can drive. You have to do that. Just say you can or can't. What's so hard about that?" [pretty sure I went overboard here especially with that last sentence, but I'm frustrated from this repeating pattern]
DH: "If you want me to, I could go get take away."
Me: "Just tell me if you can. I'm not going to tell you to do it because I want you to. I won't be the one to make this decision."
DH (after a long silence): "So, if I were to get take away, what I should I get?"
We then discuss what to get and he goes and gets takeaway. AIBU to expect him to be able to actually own up to making the decision himself?

This is a repeating pattern. If ever there is a decision where the options are he sacrifices versus puts his own interests first, he just refuses to make a strong statement. It feels like he is making me make the decision, so then it is me who has decided he goes without or gets what he wants.

Another example is a recent row we had over TV. We normally watch a recorded TV show after I put DD to bed and have my bath. So I come out from my bath to find him about 30 minutes from the end of a movie. Thinking he might prefer to finish watching the movie, I ask, "Shall we watch a show, or would you like to finish watching that? I can do MN something else until it's over."

DH: "Whatever you want."
Me: "I'm happy either way."
DH: "Do you want to watch a show now?"
Me: "I really have no opinion."
DH: "The movie is on record."
Me (confused): "So, do you want to stop watching it now? I'd be happy to watch something with you."
DH (angry): "Stop making me guess what you want!"
Me (angry): "I don't want anything! I really have no opinion! Do you want to watch the movie or not?"
[and an argument takes off]
I eventually just walked away hiding tears and nearly posted a very angry post on MN, but calmed down. And he watched the end of the movie.

It does seem connected with when he has a desire, but as I can't always guess what the desire is, it is confusing. Just a few nights ago we had the TV conversation that went very differently (same set-up, DH about 30 minutes from the end of the movie):

Me (trying a different question, hoping it will help): "Are you absorbed in this movie, such that you'd like to see the end?"
DH: "Not really. It wasn't as good as I'd heard."
Me: "So you'd be happy to watch something with me now?"
DH: "Yes."
We then watch a show. No further drama.

I'd like to discuss this with DH, as it is getting very frustrating for me to feel like I am always the one to 'make' him sacrifice or decide he 'can' have a treat. But before I do, I wanted to check and make sure it isn't me. Am I being overbearing? Should I have just taken "I could probably" as a "Yes" and gone from there? Was it inappropriate for me to demand he take a stance? Would my second movie question have worked the first night? Or, at least, should I try more things like that -- asking directly about if he's having fun versus is he willing to sacrifice?

Sorry this is so long. (Oh, and namechange because I'm bit embarrassed about asking this, and because DH might know my username...)

Hmm. In the first year of our marriage, I was invited to play a number of guessing games like these. Like LurkingHusband upthread, I didn't realise what was going on. All I knew was that there was continual and increasing unhappiness on both sides.

It came to a head when I asked what the problem was, and I was told "if you don't know I'm not going to tell you". Things got...loud. Then it was sorted.

You could always try tacking on at the end of a question "a simple yes or no is all that is required/acceptable" or if you don't feel comfortable with that perhaps do the coin flip but preface it with "if you can't/won't give me a yes or no answer l'll flip this coin." Mind you you're stuffed if he can't decide on heads or tails.

I still think you need to sort out his food/kitchen issues I think your lives would improve greatly if you do.

The fact he has CFS is massively relevant to everything you've said. You should've put that in your first post.

Apropos of nothing but whereabouts in the US are you from? Some of your wording is slightly unusual and I feel like I need to put an accent to it.

I just don't get it? It seems like massive issues are being made out of nothing! How do you cope with big stuff? Decisions about your dd, house etc..

DH used to reply 'if you like' if I said, for e.g "Shall we go for a walk ?'' "Do you fancy seeing X at the cinema on Sun' . 'Shall I get tickets for X?' -usually months in advance of a concert/theatre. I learned to say " Well obviously I'd like, or I wouldn't have suggested it , but I'm not set on it if you don't like . Otherwise I'd have said 'I'm going to go to X. Do you want to come '?" . It seems to work . He's now less passive .
He's the same about holidays . I have told him I'm going to X in October for a big birthday and he's got to decide soon if he wants to come . He will .
Does that make me passive aggressive ?
If it weren't for me we wouldn't do anything tbh . DD2 once commented that if he had a fridge and a kettle in his study he probably wouldn't ever come out, except to go to the loo/sleep . The odd thing is, he's very good company and does enjoy it when we do do things/go on holiday. Men...

I can't imagine eating a takeaway if I were ill either . But that's not very relevant I suppose

DH does not cook(unless left alone overnight (horrors) when he is perfectly capable of cooking the steak/oven chips or whatever I have left for him ). He often makes his own lunch as I am a 'lady who lunches' . Sometimes toast and marmite, though he can boil an egg if pushed. Or heat soup . There is always 'stuff' in the fridge .
Consequently DH eats without complaining whatever is put in front of him, including veggie food when DD1 is home on visit. In the evenings we always eat the same thing, together , unless I'm going out to eat (v occasionally with friends).He always says 'thank you,my darling'. He quite often says ' that was very nice/tasty' . I never ask him what he wants as I plan the week's meals in advance and shop accordingly . ( Used to work ft ,when children were young Only way I could cope) .
I know this is a bit 50s housewife-ish. But the point is, you are wasting energy and getting stressed about things where you could just remove choice, as he's obviously easy going .Or possibly his illnesses render him incapable of decision making ( I must look up CFS)

My DH can be like this. I now tell him, I am making x decision. If it turns out to be wrong and he tries to say something I emphatically tell him he lost his chance.

His mum and step dad never let him have a voice or make a decision. He had never even bought himself clothes before he went to Uni. He was sent to his bedroom at 6 pm each evening to keep him out of the way, even when he was 18.

He has gradually discovered that he is allowed to say what he wants and I won't cry and scream then exact revenge if he chooses the wrong TV show (unlike his mother who has done that to me) and at nearly 50 he does know how to have the "I fancy this, do you agree?" type discussions, but it has taken a long time.

Hang on a second...did I read this right earlier?

When your MIL visits you she takes over your kitchen, uses every single item in it, cooks nasty, unidentifiable gloop that no one even likes, and doesn't clean up a single thing? Leaving you and your DH to sort out the absolute shit tip she leaves behind?

Crikey. Don't know what to say except, er, boundaries?

I still think him dithering is him wanting you to choose or he'll get it wrong - in your opinion. I 'get' from the takeaway story that he doesn't want one but will go if you really wanted him to. I think he's lost his balls.

Sorry, it really didn't occur to me that CFS could be relevant -- he's always been like this, so it seemed like a personality trait. But he has always had CFS, too, so that doesn't actually follow! I will try to pay attention and see if it happens more often when he's very tired, in which case I can be understanding at those points.

Thanks everyone who has sympathesised, having experienced similiar!

postchild - we had a series of those when DD was very young, with me asking if he would look after her while I did X-nice-thing for myself. He'd say "If you want me to." I did finally manage to get through to him that by saying that it made me feel guilty for asking for X-nice-thing, and that obviously I wanted him to, otherwise I wouldn't have brought it up! He did learn to just say "Sure."

getsober - she cooks nice stuff that everybody likes. I don't understand where the weird gloop comes from. With PIL, I work on being grateful for what they do. They have been exceedingly helpful. They came when DD was born and I was unable to do anything (had been unable to walk about 6mo prior to birth, and then had EMCS), and fed me and DH. At other times they've come while I was busy with work and DH was doing degree-crunch things, and again taken care of everyone. It's bit a of a mess when they leave, but on balance they are so very helpful (they reroofed our shed, did up our garden, and all sorts of DIY that a tired working FT Mum and a CFS SAHD just never managed to get done). Unlike my parents, who just expect to be catered to and do nothing but criticise. PIL are highly preferred visitors.

Takeaway when ill - well, it's better than nothing, isn't it?

Food - things are so much better than they used to be. We used to have conversations like the takeaway every night, but now I just cook something. I've discovered that while he might object to the idea of something, he is much less likely to object to its reality, ready to be eaten. And, strangely, if we don't discuss it, he is much less likely to slide into the 'you decided, it's your fault' thing as well. I think we've come a very long way here. And taking care of DD is making him make food (even if he sometimes forgets himself), too. A long-seated issue like this isn't going to go away overnight.

Oh, I've been all over the US! My accent is probably closest to generic mid-west, if you want to imagine.

I'm glad you're feeling a bit more positive about this situation - I do know how it can grind you down to always feel like you are responsible for decisions, but all the second guessing you do is part of that fatigue. Once you have decided to be a bit more pragmatic about things and take your husband at his word then you can work out what works, what doesn't and what you need to discuss and plan for together.
I also think it might help to remember than an argument that arises because you are both trying SO hard to accommodate each other's preferences is actually quite a good sign in terms of your relationship health - you don't want to walk all over him and he doesn't mind adjusting what he's doing to make sure you're happy - it may be infuriating, but it's a long way from some of the more fundamental disagreements you read about on here.

Could be worse: It could be crab-sticks. You really don't want to know what goes in those.

My immediate though was you should just have phoned a takeaway to be delivered. Sounds like he didn't want to go out, you didn't want to cook so it was the only logical option in this situation.

As for the tv thing. If DH is watching something and I ask him if he wants to finish it or watch something we have recorded. If he answers anything other than 'No - I'm not watching it so lets put in X', I assume he is actually enjoying whatever he is watching and leave him to it. If I was to go about it the way you do we would end up in a similar conversation as you.

Thanks. Remembering our conversations about the baby-free time thing, he stated that to him saying "if you want" was equivalent to saying "yes". He really didn't get the implication that he'd rather not do it I am wondering if when he is saying "could probably" and "if you want", and I hear "no, not really" like a normal person--, he is just thinking he's saying "yes" in a polite manner. So we could be talking crossed each other.

And we have manged to successfully arrange take away and several other things without incident over the last few days, despite the fact that we both still feel bad. I suspect my limited patience when feeling ill also made things more difficult.

Oh, and big decisions never have these issues! We've made very large decisions (moving countries, having a child, unexpectedly buying a house, etc) without any trouble at all. It is the small ones where they appear -- things that shouldn't need discussion at all! There is probably a hint in there somewhere.