To think he could own up to making an actual decision?

[riverriver]

A bit of background: I've been ill and told DH I wouldn't be cooking dinners, and we agreed to get take away for a couple days, which he would drive out and get. But then DH got ill too, but not as bad as me (I wasn't able to stand or even sit for more than a few minutes at time, he'd been sitting up all day). Here's an approximate transcript of our conversation the other night:

Me: "DH, are you feeling up to driving for take away tonight?"
DH: "I dunno."
Me: "If not, I could make myself some soup and help you put on some fish sticks. But I can't do much more than that, so you'd have to help cook your dinner."
DH: silence
Me (after a while): "DH? We need to talk about dinner. Are you up to getting take way or should we cook?"
[cycle through the last two lines a few times, until...]
DH: "I'm feeling pretty bad. I just can't think."
Me: "Shall I start some fish sticks for you? Or would you like something else?"
DH: "I could probably get take away."
Me (getting frustrated): "Could probably? Can you or can't you? I'm not going to tell you to get take away when you feel bad, because I can't make the decision of whether or not you can drive. You have to do that. Just say you can or can't. What's so hard about that?" [pretty sure I went overboard here especially with that last sentence, but I'm frustrated from this repeating pattern]
DH: "If you want me to, I could go get take away."
Me: "Just tell me if you can. I'm not going to tell you to do it because I want you to. I won't be the one to make this decision."
DH (after a long silence): "So, if I were to get take away, what I should I get?"
We then discuss what to get and he goes and gets takeaway. AIBU to expect him to be able to actually own up to making the decision himself?

This is a repeating pattern. If ever there is a decision where the options are he sacrifices versus puts his own interests first, he just refuses to make a strong statement. It feels like he is making me make the decision, so then it is me who has decided he goes without or gets what he wants.

Another example is a recent row we had over TV. We normally watch a recorded TV show after I put DD to bed and have my bath. So I come out from my bath to find him about 30 minutes from the end of a movie. Thinking he might prefer to finish watching the movie, I ask, "Shall we watch a show, or would you like to finish watching that? I can do MN something else until it's over."

DH: "Whatever you want."
Me: "I'm happy either way."
DH: "Do you want to watch a show now?"
Me: "I really have no opinion."
DH: "The movie is on record."
Me (confused): "So, do you want to stop watching it now? I'd be happy to watch something with you."
DH (angry): "Stop making me guess what you want!"
Me (angry): "I don't want anything! I really have no opinion! Do you want to watch the movie or not?"
[and an argument takes off]
I eventually just walked away hiding tears and nearly posted a very angry post on MN, but calmed down. And he watched the end of the movie.

It does seem connected with when he has a desire, but as I can't always guess what the desire is, it is confusing. Just a few nights ago we had the TV conversation that went very differently (same set-up, DH about 30 minutes from the end of the movie):

Me (trying a different question, hoping it will help): "Are you absorbed in this movie, such that you'd like to see the end?"
DH: "Not really. It wasn't as good as I'd heard."
Me: "So you'd be happy to watch something with me now?"
DH: "Yes."
We then watch a show. No further drama.

I'd like to discuss this with DH, as it is getting very frustrating for me to feel like I am always the one to 'make' him sacrifice or decide he 'can' have a treat. But before I do, I wanted to check and make sure it isn't me. Am I being overbearing? Should I have just taken "I could probably" as a "Yes" and gone from there? Was it inappropriate for me to demand he take a stance? Would my second movie question have worked the first night? Or, at least, should I try more things like that -- asking directly about if he's having fun versus is he willing to sacrifice?

Sorry this is so long. (Oh, and namechange because I'm bit embarrassed about asking this, and because DH might know my username...)

I would not be so crass as to suggest it's a gender-specific thing

Although casual conversation with various couples we know suggests it's something that women do to men more than vice versa.

I think you'll find you have been so crass, twice in fact.

caeleath thanks. Ages ago, when we discussed this behaviour pattern before, DH said to me, "But if I make the decision and it goes wrong, then it's my fault!" So I said, "So you want to make it my fault, then?" And he didn't answer.

I think that's part of it -- he doesn't want to accept any blame for any decision gone wrong. And if a decision does go wrong, I get the blame, because I 'forced' him to do it.

I hate always doing my thing, and I hate always getting the blame if he is unhappy, the food doesn't taste good, etc. Because even if I tried to find his opinion, he couches it in a way that is my decision: "could probably", "if you want", etc. If I take that as a 'yes' I am implicitly taking responsibility for the decision.

That's why I don't think if I do just take him at face value, he will ever stand up and say what he wants, because he prefers to have the out of having it have been my decision.

And dismissing the strong socialisation that women go through to put the needs of others first, by saying that psychology is of no interest to you, is pretty bloody crass.

lurking - 'do you really mean that?' I'll try that too!

river - you have to explain this to him then, at a time when it isn't on the back of an argument about him not making decisions. You shouldn't be getting the blame if he is unhappy with decisions he has abstained from.

Why does it have to be anyone's fault? I don't understand. Life isn't about blaming. Picking the wrong takeaway, Indian or Chinese isn't about pointing the finger. Pushing him into buying a house he didn't want could be.

We've watched some seriously shit films lately - that I have chosen! I'm not sulking or made to feel inferior, he just jokes that he'll choose the next one as I've just picked rubbish! No big deal. It seems like you're giving him a whole list of decisions to make every night over really minor things that you could take charge of.

You both sound a bit 'difficult' tbh. You're both as bad as each other. You should have said are you getting a takeaway or not. If you didn't get a straight answer then say well I'm having soup since you can't make up your mind. You do sound a bit unsuited to each other I'm afraid.

DH said to me, "But if I make the decision and it goes wrong, then it's my fault!"

I have this with DH too, although he won't actually admit why is does it.

I make it very clear that if he won't make a decision then I don't want to hear any more about it.

He'll leave decisions to me, then carp about it if it's wrong or he didn't enjoy something - example, last week was our wedding anniversary, we had a baby sitter so decided to go out for dinner on our own. I asked "where do you want to go?", I then get I don't mind/it's up to you so I booked a table at our local pub (we could walk there so could both have a couple of drinks and not worry about driving/taxi) but the food wasn't that nice and service was a bit crap. He started to complain that my choice was wrong, why didn't I book X instead?

I turn it round, why didn't you book X? Why didn't you say where you wanted to go when I asked?

I'm feeling a great urge to knock your heads together.

Could I introduce you to the phrase, "I'll take that as a no/yes, then"? You could solve the first problem with:
You: DH, are you feeling up to driving for a takeaway tonight?
DH: I dunno
You: I'll take that as a no, then [and toddle off to make yourself some soup]

If he really did want to get a takeaway, he would then have said, "No, that's OK. I'll go."

The TV problems, I just don't get. Unless there is something SPECIFIC that you want to watch at that particular time, why on earth would you suggest that your DH stops watching whatever he's watching? Either you join him for the last 30 minutes of the film, or you go and do something else.

Yes river, that's exactly it! And I can never, ever complain/moan about things going wrong or not being as great as maybe they could have been, because it was my bloody decision so obviously everything must've been perfect for me.

Not quite the same, but in the same vein, about responsibilities. I've managed to fork out one thing which helps a little. I've given him (yes, it needed to be formally "given") responsibility for everything to do with food shopping and dinners. He doesn't have to do all the shopping or cooking, but he is responsible for it being done. It has helped a little bit, I think he understands a bit more how frustrating it can be when you can't just opt out all the time. And he can't suddenly go "so what's for dinner" half an hour before dinner needs to be served, which used to piss me off rather badly since it was always assumed that I should've planned it so if it wasn't ready in time it'd be my fault.

He needs responsibility to be properly, formally and permanently given before being able to make a decision that rests within that responsibility though. And sadly it has not affected his decision making capabilities when it comes to family stuff. He has yet, after almost 3 years as a father, to suggest, plan and organize a family activity (I lie. He did invite friends over once and seemed to think he should've gotten a medal)

If I had been for a bath and came out to find DH watching a film I would never ask him if he wanted to turn it off. Especially if there's only 30 mins left. I'd get out my knitting or something and then watch something else when it's done.

To me it sounds like you're trying to get your own way.

Too many conversations about things that don't warrant all this interrogation. Especially when everything remains unresolved. He's watching a film which ends in 30 minutes? If you aren't bothered then don't introduce a discussion about it. Just do something else until it has finished then watch the other programme together.

It reminds me of dealing with my former PIL. They'd never offer an opinion on what they wanted to do. So eventually, someone else would make a decision. It would be wrong. In the end, I'd simply announce "We're doing X today". If I was going to be wrong anyway, at least I'd been decisively wrong and not wasted ages on pointless dialogue.

Still can't work out why a grown man can't feed himself and his wife though. Why is it takeaway or fishfingers? Why can't he go into the kitchen and cook something for both of you? Also, can't understand why you need to monitor his eating and keep checking that he has eaten. He's not a 3 year old.

It does sound like neither of you wants to make a decision at all. Saying I genuinely don't care is no answer as he probably doesn't care that much either. Try "Can I turn this off so we can watch Curb Your Enthusiasm now?". That way he'll say "fine" or "Can I just watch the end of this? There's only 25 mins to go." and you say "fine".

It is a slightly British think to sort of apologise and be so afraid off offending someone by expressing an opinion. I'm guessing from fish sticks you're not British though...

By the way next time get takeaway delivered. It's win - win.

Why didn't you phone for takeaway. And buy a tv for the bedroom. Life's too short for your endless discussions. Couldn't be bothered with all the analysis.

Like others just reading this is exhausting, "I don't have s desire, don't want to indicate a desire, etc., etc.," it sounds like a badly written sitcom.

OP you and your dh seem incapable of basic communication with each other, it's all tedious round the houses, hidden meaning, easily misinterpreted stuff. Say what you mean clearly, I think you need to sit down and properly discuss this I would suggest with a third party because from what you've described you won't get anywhere just the two of you.

The second of your scenarios was just bizarre, I can't ever imagine having that kind of conversation with anyone, the only thing I would think of saying in that situation is "I'm going to do x give me a shout when the film's finished and we can watch x together."

As another pp said "Are you going to get us a takeaway as previously agreed?" "I dunno" "is that yes or no as I need to know now so I can organise something else if you're not going."

Stop dancing around, and that applies to both of you, and use the marvellous tool of language that humans possess and communicate.

he doesn't want to accept any blame for any decision gone wrong

Well what's going to go wrong in a choice between takeaway and fishfingers? I don't get it. Or watching/not watching the end of a film?

I can understand some angst over actual life changing decisions (and even then pragmatism wins) but all this over simple things would drive me mad.

My DH is a bit like this but we have been together forever so I have trained him out of it for the most part.

My DH's issue with expressing his wishes stems from his mother who is hugely controlling and passive aggressive. When she says she doesn't mind about something she means she really does mind and whichever decision you make will be wrong. So she 'doesn't mind' where we go out for lunch but if something disappoints her 'such a shame we didn't go to that other place as its nicer but.....sigh never mind'.

Could it be stemming from a similar place for your DH?

I can understand the OP's frustration, though. My friend divorced her husband because he never, ever made a decision, apart from saying "yes" when they got married.

He left it all for her to decide things, then sniped at her if things didn't go well.

She decided that she wanted to find someone who would be equally involved in decision making. I saw how tired she was of it all; it's quite draining by the looks of it, all that mental energy being spent on trying to find out if her husband actually had an opinion, any opinion.

My DSis is with someone who is entirely passive and never makes a single suggestion or decision and it drives her insane, and I wonder wtf she is still with him.

However, DSis is a control freak and grew up with my parents' second-guessing and 'I don't mind', 'no really, I don't mind', so I don't know how much she has contributed to the situation.

So it's OK for you to sometimes really have no opinion, but it's deeply annoying when your DH really has no opinion? Is that it?

TBH I think you are making heavy weather of nothing.

In the food scenario I would have said "well if you're not bothered I'll warm some soup up for me and you can sort yourself." And then warmed some soup up for myself and left him to it. Why is that so hard?

I didn't read the second scanario because I was so worn out by the first

OP, I think you're getting a hard time here. My DH is a little bit like this (he comes from a long line of indecisive people!) and it can be infuriating when you genuinely have no opinion and just want the decision to be made. The only advice I have is to say 'OK, you think about it for five minutes while I do x'. I find giving DH a hug or kiss helps dispel any impression I'm being PA or have an agenda (I have no idea why others think you are being PA).

Because we have no idea why you would suggest to someone that they stop watching a film 30 minutes before the end, unless you actually wanted them to stop but didn't want to ask them outright.

Wait...you have to WARN him that there's kitchen work involved?? What in god's name is kitchen work?? Why do you have to warn him about it? He does know that the kitchen is not a flesh-eating kraken, right?
You say you wish there was a middle ground between walking over him and second-guessing. THERE IS. It's what's known as a balanced relationship between 2 grown-up people. Your relationship seems to consist of you babying a manchild who sulks when he's hungry and thinks you don't like him when you don't make him fishsticks wtf. I couldn't stand that, I really couldn't.

When he says "I dunno" cheerily say "I'll take that as a yes/no then since you can't make up your mind you dithering twat " Keep doing it until he realises that when he responds like that he'll have zero input into the outcome.
When he snaps at you because he's hungry and you haven't instantly provided his fishsticks cooked in unicorn farts the appropriate response is "I'm not talking to you until you eat and don't take your fucking bad moods out on me ".

Mabel that's so irritating isn't it? The one and only time someone did that in my presence complete with huffy, martyr-type sigh the response was "you were asked which venue you would prefer, you made no indication of preference if you can't make a simple choice then that's your problem. Perhaps next time you will make your preferences clear beforehand."

I was neither the sigher nor the responder, but the sigher never repeated the behaviour.

queen