To think he could own up to making an actual decision?

[riverriver]

A bit of background: I've been ill and told DH I wouldn't be cooking dinners, and we agreed to get take away for a couple days, which he would drive out and get. But then DH got ill too, but not as bad as me (I wasn't able to stand or even sit for more than a few minutes at time, he'd been sitting up all day). Here's an approximate transcript of our conversation the other night:

Me: "DH, are you feeling up to driving for take away tonight?"
DH: "I dunno."
Me: "If not, I could make myself some soup and help you put on some fish sticks. But I can't do much more than that, so you'd have to help cook your dinner."
DH: silence
Me (after a while): "DH? We need to talk about dinner. Are you up to getting take way or should we cook?"
[cycle through the last two lines a few times, until...]
DH: "I'm feeling pretty bad. I just can't think."
Me: "Shall I start some fish sticks for you? Or would you like something else?"
DH: "I could probably get take away."
Me (getting frustrated): "Could probably? Can you or can't you? I'm not going to tell you to get take away when you feel bad, because I can't make the decision of whether or not you can drive. You have to do that. Just say you can or can't. What's so hard about that?" [pretty sure I went overboard here especially with that last sentence, but I'm frustrated from this repeating pattern]
DH: "If you want me to, I could go get take away."
Me: "Just tell me if you can. I'm not going to tell you to do it because I want you to. I won't be the one to make this decision."
DH (after a long silence): "So, if I were to get take away, what I should I get?"
We then discuss what to get and he goes and gets takeaway. AIBU to expect him to be able to actually own up to making the decision himself?

This is a repeating pattern. If ever there is a decision where the options are he sacrifices versus puts his own interests first, he just refuses to make a strong statement. It feels like he is making me make the decision, so then it is me who has decided he goes without or gets what he wants.

Another example is a recent row we had over TV. We normally watch a recorded TV show after I put DD to bed and have my bath. So I come out from my bath to find him about 30 minutes from the end of a movie. Thinking he might prefer to finish watching the movie, I ask, "Shall we watch a show, or would you like to finish watching that? I can do MN something else until it's over."

DH: "Whatever you want."
Me: "I'm happy either way."
DH: "Do you want to watch a show now?"
Me: "I really have no opinion."
DH: "The movie is on record."
Me (confused): "So, do you want to stop watching it now? I'd be happy to watch something with you."
DH (angry): "Stop making me guess what you want!"
Me (angry): "I don't want anything! I really have no opinion! Do you want to watch the movie or not?"
[and an argument takes off]
I eventually just walked away hiding tears and nearly posted a very angry post on MN, but calmed down. And he watched the end of the movie.

It does seem connected with when he has a desire, but as I can't always guess what the desire is, it is confusing. Just a few nights ago we had the TV conversation that went very differently (same set-up, DH about 30 minutes from the end of the movie):

Me (trying a different question, hoping it will help): "Are you absorbed in this movie, such that you'd like to see the end?"
DH: "Not really. It wasn't as good as I'd heard."
Me: "So you'd be happy to watch something with me now?"
DH: "Yes."
We then watch a show. No further drama.

I'd like to discuss this with DH, as it is getting very frustrating for me to feel like I am always the one to 'make' him sacrifice or decide he 'can' have a treat. But before I do, I wanted to check and make sure it isn't me. Am I being overbearing? Should I have just taken "I could probably" as a "Yes" and gone from there? Was it inappropriate for me to demand he take a stance? Would my second movie question have worked the first night? Or, at least, should I try more things like that -- asking directly about if he's having fun versus is he willing to sacrifice?

Sorry this is so long. (Oh, and namechange because I'm bit embarrassed about asking this, and because DH might know my username...)

Stop saying desire all the time. Do you talk like this with your dh?

Could you work on your questions and ask a lot less of them so his response could only be option A or option B with no room for 'I don't know'?

I do all the cooking so if I say 'What would you like for dinner' the response will be something like 'Oh just do something that's quick and easy for you'
However, if I say 'Would you like pork chop or lasagne for dinner? I'm much more likely to get a decision. If it's the infuriating 'I don't mind, then I'll just say 'choose one'

Same with TV. If he's watching something you're not interested in, just ask what time it finishes and he'll give you a time, it's the only answer he can practically give. About 15 mins before it finishes, ask if you can watch something you find interesting at the time he stated.

With the conversation in your OP, you've given him a lot of choices and the opportunity to try and read between the lines to guess what your preference really is within all of those options. Chop all of that out and simplify it for him.

Oh my, so much! I think I have a lot of good info here, though. I do talk too much. I will definitely work to limit what I say, and be more specific, so it can be more obvious there is a choice for him to make.

food - he has a major problem with food, for a variety of reasons, but the fear of The Kitchen Work I'm sure is from growing up with MIL. I've seen her kitchen. It's terrifying. When she comes to stay, it takes about 12 hours for our kitchen to look like hers, and I just stay out of the way and let her get on with things as I can't work in an environment like that (unwashed bowls, things piled up all over, mysterious items in the fridge we clean up when she's gone, and often have no idea what strange liquids or sludges might be/have been). I really enjoy cooking, and so it generally isn't a problem I handle all of the food happily. But when I get ill things get hard. I know this is problem for him, and we've come to a general approach that usually works. I don't think I can 'change' him here, and accept this about him.

DD's bedtime - DH is SAHD and I work full time, so DD's bedtime is valued quality time with her for me. I wouldn't expect him to take it over. (I would, however, have expected him to mention that he thought I'd like the movie, and I could have skipped my bath/meditation/chores/etc that I regularly do and watch it with him starting after I left DD!)

And with the above, as a SAHD, DH does contribute a lot! I generally take over when I get home, and do the cooking (which I enjoy). He handles a lot household stuff, arrangements, etc. He has moderate CFS/ME, so cannot do as much as one might usually expect (I didn't mention this before as it seemed irrelevant to whether he could make a decision); he recently finished a degree which took twice the usual time to complete with a series of leaves of absence and extensions and is looking for work. Realistically, he will never hold more than a part-time job. I'm fine with that. He was ill when we met, although has gotten slowly worse over the last decade.

end of movie - I've explained before, he usually doesn't watch them, thus I thought it was a valid question.

We do do a lot together! We talk about our TV shows :), interesting things we read on the internet, and other stuff. We discuss my work and his work-search. I wouldn't say we live separate lives at all.

I believe I've degenerated into a random defense of myself/DH here. I'll try to figure out what I can take away from this -- less talk from me, more specifics. Not sure if I should try to bring anything up with him, or just change my behaviour first? As I mentioned, we have discussed this pattern in the past, and it has gotten better for periods of time. It could be with the stress of job searching it is more difficult for him.

OP - The thing is, for me - and apparently for a number of others on here - we can't even understand why you would even raise these issues to begin with, unless you already had a specific outcome in mind.

I have no idea why you would tell him you could help him with the fish fingers. Do you offer to help him wipe his arse as well? It's pretty patronising! If he wants to have the fish fingers, he can. He could also just make a sandwich. Maybe he doesn't even want the sodding fish fingers. Why are you even making assumptions about it?!?! He must have managed to feed himself at some point in his life and not die of starvation. WHY IS IT SO IMPORTANT FOR YOU TO INVOLVE YOURSELF IN EVERYTHING!!

Take the take away example.

He says, whilst sitting on the sofa feeling like shit; "I could probably get takeaway". Isn't that obviously saying "I don't want to get takeaway but I could probably manage if you really wanted me to/insist". Do you really need him to spell it out in black and white? If he said "no" would there have been a possibility about you commenting on how he wasn't as ill as you were? Honestly?

It comes across like you want him to start making decisions and being more pro active, but you also insist on making decisions for him.

EXAMPLE: Why even ask him "do you have plans for food"? Does he not live with you? Does he often just go out without mentioning it to you beforehand? Why wouldn't you say "I'm doing lunch - want some?" Rather than asking about his "plans", then just cooking something for him and telling him it's in the kitchen?

Everything about the dynamics in this relationship just comes across as so WEIRD!!

He says, whilst sitting on the sofa feeling like shit; "I could probably get takeaway". Isn't that obviously saying "I don't want to get takeaway but I could probably manage if you really wanted me to/insist".

Yes! That's what I feel too! Which is why it's so maddening. So why does he answer that after I've said offered to cook him something? Doesn't "Shall I make you fish sticks, or would you rather something else?" indicate that I've heard his unspoken "I feel like shit and don't want to go out" and am now working on the operating assumption that he won't go out? Based on the outcome, I think that he did in fact see driving as less work than cooking, and preferred that. So why then was he so wishy-washy about it?

It is all small stuff. Which is why it keeps reoccurring -- it never seems much of an issue to really bring up any other time. And my attempt to bring it up during the event (takeway) obviously failed miserably.

How long have you two been together?

It sounds exhausting!!!!

Some of the examples do sound trivial, but to be honest, I find the indecision/lack of input over trivial stuff more maddening than the indecision over major stuff.

So stuff like

Me: what do you fancy for dinner
DH: I don't mind
I serve up dinner
DH: shepherds pie again?/I don't like mashed potato

Having put kids to bed, flopped on couch
Me: what do you want to watch?
DH: I don't mind
I put something on, half an hour later
DH: this is boring/rubbish/why are we watching this tripe?

It makes me want to poke him in the eye.

I don't engage with it, but at the same time I don't want to manage him or railroad him into stuff all the time. It is quite frustrating

And you have a child together? You speak to him like a stranger!

If this is small stuff I'd hate to be about for the big stuff!

Forgive me if I'm wrong, but I thought that difficulty with making decisions and processing information was a symptom of ME/CFS? I know that a friend of mine described exactly the situation you are describing in as much as she was starving hungry and simply couldn't decide what she wanted to eat, and that was the trigger that encouraged her to seek help.

If he is looking after your daughter all day and making relatively important decisions about her care and development, then perhaps he does want you to take over that aspect of his life when you are home. Maybe it's worth a discussion to avoid both of you feeling frustrated...?

I feel your pain OP. My parents can be like this. It's infuriating to watch.

Convo will go like this:
Mum: What do you want for tea? we could have x or y.
Dad: (who probably wants y but just wont say it) What would be easier for you?
Mum: either will be fine.
dad: well what are you having?
Mum: well I'm not bothered but will probably have x.
dad: ok I'll have that too.

He just refuses to make a decision and when she makes it for him most of the time it is ok but occasionally he will say "But I don't like sweet potato" or whatever and I just scream internally and think "Why the hell didn't you say something?"

Does your local take-away not deliver food to your door?
Otherwise I am sadly very confused by all of this.

Fish sticks in USA are fish fingers in UK.

I'd step back too.

We aren't like Blib and Blob, in that if I want to eat, my dh doesn't have to, if he's not hungry or not ready. If he's watching TV, I might be watching it in the other room. I wouldn't ask about changing channels.

If I was poorly, I'd just say, "Darling, I'm poorly. I'd like you to get me fish-and-chips tonight please." If he wasn't too well either, he'd say "Sorry love but I'm not good either." We just make direct statements and answers, not all this pussyfooting around business.
If your dh just hums and hahs, then get on with some soup or whatever and ignore him totally.

It must be irritating for each of you.
I should detach a bit from what he's doing and do what you want to do.
If you're really too frail and need help, say that clearly and firmly.

Men I've found, usually like clear, firm instructions and requests. They don't so much 'get' hints and subtle nudges.

OP I think posters who are saying you are hard work and high maintenance, etc, have never really dealt closely with someone like your DH. Making all the decisions all the time is exhausting.

I totally agree with cailindana's post at 15.01

My DH was a bit like this at the beginning. We were planning our wedding and he just kept saying, "I don't mind, I don't care, whatever you want" ad infinitum. Well the fact of the matter is that I didn't give a shiny shit what paper our invitations were printed on, or what colour the candles were on the tables, or which photography package we should sign up for, or any other of the zillion little details you need to decide upon. I just wanted him to take some of the decisions away from me! (TBF he thought he was doing the right thing, letting me the bride have everything my way). It took a few heated conversations with me basically shouting I DON'T CARE EITHER to resolve things. Luckily since then he is just as opinionated as I am!

Do people really drive to pick up a take away when you can get one delivered for £1.50, some times even free?

Each time you post the goal posts move, therefore advice previously given may be inappropriate or need revising, I'm struggling to keep up.

I still don't understand why you have the type of conversations you do about the issues you have described, it seems odd to me.

Again, the example of you making lunch for you and your dd and the "what are your meal plans?" question just doesn't strike me as the kind of conversation two people in a close loving relationship would have, more something along the lines of "I'm making lunch for dd and me, we are having toads tits on toast, do you want some?" He answers "Yes", he gets some, he answers "No", he sorts out what he wants, with a possible "I'll leave you to sort yourself out then" from you. If he doesn't and gets grumpy or stroppy then don't engage beyond reminding him he should have sorted something out for himself to eat, and your not prepared to put up with his moods because he failed to do so.

If he is a SAHD surely he manages to feed himself and dd throughout the day? So no excuse not to do so when you are there.

As these conversations are not ones I have or can ever see myself having I can only advise you to be more precise and concise in your communication, keep it short and simple, don't give too many options, aim for yes/no answers, if you get an "I don't mind" do what suits you and if there is so much as a flicker of protest/complaint remind him that he couldn't be bothered to make a decision so he has no grounds for complaint if the decision taken was not to his liking.

OP, you need to forget about him verbalising decision, clearly he isn't going to. But he DOES make decision, he just likes pretending he doesn't to stay safe.

When you came into the room and he was watching a movie you can say something like 'so is this movie you've chosen any good?' Making it clear that he HAS made a choice, even if he hasn't verbalised it.

Same with the meal. 'Well if you're not getting takeaway, I'm going to make myself some soup'.

Him - 'I could probably get takeaway'

You - 'Let me know when you decide'.

AND WALK AWAY.

If he doesn't go in 10 minutes, say 'I need to eat now so I'm going to make myself some soup. Let me know what you want'.

AND LEAVE IT.

If he gets crabby, tell him he's getting to stop being crabby and needs to eat something. BUT DON'T OFFER.

19lottie82 We're so in the middle of nowhere that there isn't a takeaway that would even find us, never mind agree to bring us a meal!

We live too far out in the country. Takeaways don't deliver to us.

DoJo - interesting point. You could be right. So when he says "I can't think" my "Do you want me to cook you X or something else" is yet another decision he can't make, so he goes back to something more concrete. I will definitely keep that in mind in the future.

He feeds DD and himself during the day because I make sure to leave leftovers that he can heat up. If there are none, I make sure to suggest an item that he can easily make (sausage, fish fingers). He doesn't let DD go hungry. But he sometimes just get something for her and not himself if I haven't primed a whole meal.

Why not just get the take away delivered?

So thinking on that if they don't deliver as you are 'to far out in the country' perhaps your DH didn't fancy the journey....

He doesn't take initiative with much by the sound of things....but you could go around in circles like this forever and a day.

I thought he didn't want to go either. Then why does he only say "If you want" or "could probably"; why doesn't he say "I don't want to"? Why, when his answers were only about feeling bad, and I made the assumption that he didn't want to go, did he bring it up again? Why would you bring up something you didn't want to do, if your partner was already planning the thing you wanted?

And I truly don't know -- he really does hate the kitchen stuff, and so to him a drive through country roads listening to his favourite music, followed by something relatively good to eat, could be preferable to dealing with the hated kitchen and something not-so-great to eat. Which is why I just wanted him to tell me!

If he was watching a movie and you didn't care less then why are you badgering for a decision?

I get this...totally.
The solution is not to have joint responsibility for things.
So for the meal thing..
" I feel like shit..so you need to deal with dinner tonight" I'd like to eat by 8.00 I don't mind something from the freezer or takeaway if you dontcfeel up to cooking" thanks xxx
TV
"I fancy catching up with my series tomorrow so your choice tonight"

Or visa versa
And because I cannot be arsed with second guessing anymore.

If he says "If you want" to a question, you can throw it back and say "I'm asking what you want." If you get a "could probably" throw it back and say "Is that yes or no?" Make it so he has to give a definitive answer, phrase your questions so there is as little room for manouevre as possible, and stop agonising over why he is given the answers he is at the moment, just cut out the possibility of you receiving those answers.

I do think you need to address his kitchen and food issues though, it's not good for either of you.

If he was watching a movie and you didn't care less then why are you badgering for a decision?

Because everything he was saying implied he didn't want to continue watching the movie, other than the fact that he wasn't actually saying so definitively, which suggests he was 'secretly' wanting to watch it and yet not telling me. He said he'd do whatever I wanted, and then asked me if I wanted to watch a show. I didn't want to say "yes" as I sensed that was in fact the opposite of what he wanted, and I really didn't care. But to just assume he wants the opposite of what he says -- that seems weird too.

emotion - that doesn't work, though. That sends us into these things. Me 'throwing it back' is what everyone is calling badgering for an answer. I can't cut out the possibility, as if I ask, "Yes or no", the answer is "whatever you want." Then we go on forever! The takeaway transcript is me getting frustrated and trying to spell out clearly why I'm not going to guess -- that I wasn't going to make the decision for him, so he had to. He still didn't.

Possibly 'let me know when you decide' would work.

I think I have a number of good options here. I'm still partial to the coin flip. If I flip a coin and decide that way, it should be obvious to him that I don't have a real interest, so if he does, he can object.