To think he could own up to making an actual decision?

[riverriver]

A bit of background: I've been ill and told DH I wouldn't be cooking dinners, and we agreed to get take away for a couple days, which he would drive out and get. But then DH got ill too, but not as bad as me (I wasn't able to stand or even sit for more than a few minutes at time, he'd been sitting up all day). Here's an approximate transcript of our conversation the other night:

Me: "DH, are you feeling up to driving for take away tonight?"
DH: "I dunno."
Me: "If not, I could make myself some soup and help you put on some fish sticks. But I can't do much more than that, so you'd have to help cook your dinner."
DH: silence
Me (after a while): "DH? We need to talk about dinner. Are you up to getting take way or should we cook?"
[cycle through the last two lines a few times, until...]
DH: "I'm feeling pretty bad. I just can't think."
Me: "Shall I start some fish sticks for you? Or would you like something else?"
DH: "I could probably get take away."
Me (getting frustrated): "Could probably? Can you or can't you? I'm not going to tell you to get take away when you feel bad, because I can't make the decision of whether or not you can drive. You have to do that. Just say you can or can't. What's so hard about that?" [pretty sure I went overboard here especially with that last sentence, but I'm frustrated from this repeating pattern]
DH: "If you want me to, I could go get take away."
Me: "Just tell me if you can. I'm not going to tell you to do it because I want you to. I won't be the one to make this decision."
DH (after a long silence): "So, if I were to get take away, what I should I get?"
We then discuss what to get and he goes and gets takeaway. AIBU to expect him to be able to actually own up to making the decision himself?

This is a repeating pattern. If ever there is a decision where the options are he sacrifices versus puts his own interests first, he just refuses to make a strong statement. It feels like he is making me make the decision, so then it is me who has decided he goes without or gets what he wants.

Another example is a recent row we had over TV. We normally watch a recorded TV show after I put DD to bed and have my bath. So I come out from my bath to find him about 30 minutes from the end of a movie. Thinking he might prefer to finish watching the movie, I ask, "Shall we watch a show, or would you like to finish watching that? I can do MN something else until it's over."

DH: "Whatever you want."
Me: "I'm happy either way."
DH: "Do you want to watch a show now?"
Me: "I really have no opinion."
DH: "The movie is on record."
Me (confused): "So, do you want to stop watching it now? I'd be happy to watch something with you."
DH (angry): "Stop making me guess what you want!"
Me (angry): "I don't want anything! I really have no opinion! Do you want to watch the movie or not?"
[and an argument takes off]
I eventually just walked away hiding tears and nearly posted a very angry post on MN, but calmed down. And he watched the end of the movie.

It does seem connected with when he has a desire, but as I can't always guess what the desire is, it is confusing. Just a few nights ago we had the TV conversation that went very differently (same set-up, DH about 30 minutes from the end of the movie):

Me (trying a different question, hoping it will help): "Are you absorbed in this movie, such that you'd like to see the end?"
DH: "Not really. It wasn't as good as I'd heard."
Me: "So you'd be happy to watch something with me now?"
DH: "Yes."
We then watch a show. No further drama.

I'd like to discuss this with DH, as it is getting very frustrating for me to feel like I am always the one to 'make' him sacrifice or decide he 'can' have a treat. But before I do, I wanted to check and make sure it isn't me. Am I being overbearing? Should I have just taken "I could probably" as a "Yes" and gone from there? Was it inappropriate for me to demand he take a stance? Would my second movie question have worked the first night? Or, at least, should I try more things like that -- asking directly about if he's having fun versus is he willing to sacrifice?

Sorry this is so long. (Oh, and namechange because I'm bit embarrassed about asking this, and because DH might know my username...)

OFrab, but if I say "Do you mind going to get a takeaway?" What do I do when the answer is "I dunno"? Is that a yes or a no?

ceart - if I don't tell him he needs to get them out, he'll assume I'm completely making them for him, so I do need to warn him there will be kitchen work. Would this be better:
"You're ill too, so I assume you don't want to get takeaway. I'll go make myself some soup. There are fishsticks in the freezer if you want to eat them. Let me know if you need some help with them." (He doesn't like soup, otherwise I'd just make him some too. I suppose I could just make us both fish sticks, but I don't in fact want fish sticks! I want soup!)

Please, tell me how they are passive-aggressive. This is an honest question. I don't want to give the impression that I have a desire when I don't, but I have now learned that what I'm saying does give an impression I have a desire.

Okay, just hit reload: I really don't understand though, how is asking someone what they want indicating that I have a desire?

Take away: The default was that he would go get it, because we had decided that before. Something changed, he was ill, so I thought I should check and see if that changed the plans. Should I instead make the assumption that because he is ill he doesn't want to go? What do I say to indicate that?

TV: The default is we watch something together, but a movie can be engrossing. I want to check if he wants to watch it. Should I go shorter? "Are you watching this?" But then how do I answer when he then says "I can watch something else if you want me to?" I don't want him to, or not want him to. i want him to do what he wants.

ImperialBlether

What are fishsticks?

WE NEED TO KNOW!

Crab sticks or a posh version of fish fingers??

Dunno

But he doesn't express an opinion! Did he express an opinion in my transcripts? Did I miss it? I'd be happy with either way. What I'm not happy with is me having to say "Do this because I desire it," which is the only way something happens.

Fish sticks are fish fingers, aren't they? That's what I remember them being called in the US.

fishsticks American for fish fingers :)

OFrab, but if I say "Do you mind going to get a takeaway?" What do I do when the answer is "I dunno"? Is that a yes or a no?

You say, well can you decide quickly please because if you can't go I'll make myself some soup.

And FFS, a grown man does not need you to make him fish fingers!

I'm exhausted reading this too! Totally agree with Ceart fully here.

Let him watch the end of his film, watch something after. YOUR decision to choose not an all around the houses, shall we watch a, b or c? It sounds like you really wanted a takeaway and he'd have got it for you but you were trying to make it seem like his idea to get one? You had soup and did he want fishsticks? Fishsticks ffs!! With smiley faces? Joke. Why didn't you make the pair of you some soup while he watched the end of his film?

I think you need to lay off the PA (it comes across like that) or whining or nagging. Give him a chance to breathe between your sentences.

Does he actually like the programmes you record to watch every night or not?

Why do you need to put his fish fingers in?? Do you have to put in his smiley faces and baked beans also?

"Are you getting take away?....if so I'll have rivers special'

"Dunno"

"We'll let me know as I'm starving and will put in soup if not"

but if I say "Do you mind going to get a takeaway?" What do I do when the answer is "I dunno"? Is that a yes or a no?

The problem is, when you (in this case me) start to realise that the question is loaded, and you have no hint as to the "correct" answer, the only way to avoid a frosty time is to try and get a hint.

Yes, this really does happen !

Surely if both parties are ill, then you wouldn't want a takeaway at all?

The OP has said she wasn't able to stand or sit, even for a few minutes, so how on earth could you happily tuck into a Chicken Tikka Masala or suchlike?

You say, well can you decide quickly please because if you can't go I'll make myself some soup.

But people have just told me it's inappropriate for me to demand he make a decision on my timescale. Is this different somehow?

And that's basically what happened, except his answer was "I could probably go get take away". Should I have just accepted this as a "yes"?

It just makes me feel burdened that by the way he phrased it, it then becomes my decision.

OK, this is my advice.

1 Fish sticks (?) won't ever make anyone feel better.

2 The answer to "Do you want a takeaway?" is always yes. When in doubt, go for it.

3 His illness will always be worse than yours. Don't fight it. Say you are frightened of catching his illness (which he caught off you) and keep clear of him. Competitive illnesses ruin relationships.

4 Accept that he can't make decisions and milk it by just doing whatever you want.

It's like a battle of the martyrs with the food thing going on.

YoullLikeItNotaLot , I imagined 'fishsticks' were similar to fishfingers and lo and behold, when I googled I discovered that they are, quite simply fishfingers!!

Google is great

"I don't want him to, or not want him to. i want him to do what he wants."

He was doing what he wanted- i.e. vegging out in front of a film he was half-watching whilst pissing about on his phone. It's called relaxing- try it sometime .

You sound very frustrated, OP.

I'm smiling reading this though (sorry) as can't you see you both do the same thing to each other. You are annoyed because you want him to make a choice but he won't make a choice because he doesn't really mind either way. Um...but you want him to make the choice because YOU don't really mind either way either.

So you end up stuck, with both of you not really minding, and neither of you making a decision.

Think through the TV movie example. You didn't mind whether the channel was changed now so you could watch something else, or whether he finished the film and then you watched something else. So you wanted him to pick. BUT he didn't mind whether he finished the film and then you watched something else, or whether the channel was changed straight away. He wanted you to pick. You wouldn't pick because you didn't have a preference. He wouldn't pick because he didn't have a preference.

It all sounds like awfully hard work. It also sounds as though you both have a bit of a problem stating simply 'I would like X' and fudge around trying to get the other to make the decision. You might be really indecisive people. You might be two very laid-back let-someone-else-be-in-charge- people. You could each be avoiding the responsibility that comes with making a decision. Or, it could be that you've both learned in the past that other people's needs are more important than your own, sadly.

Can you both have a think about what's going on here. In the meantime, can you agree to alternate on having the responsibility of taking decisions?

It might help giving him a little bt more time to come to a decision - sometimes I can't identify a 'desire', even for something as simple as whether to finish a film or not, unless I have a few minutes by myself to think.

lurking - yes, that probably is what is happening. But the problem is it really, really isn't loaded. Sometimes I really have no opinion.

I don't know if it matters, but I'm his second wife -- I wonder if his first wife did like yours does, lurking? So he is assuming that I do have an opinion? Because it sure feels like he is!

This doesn't happen when I have an opinion. I just say, "I'd really like takeaway. Do you feel up to getting it?" Then he'd say "Yes." Only if he was so deathly ill that he was worried about keeping his eyes open or something would he say "No". But in that case, it would be obvious to me, too, so I'd not ask! It's those middle cases where one could probably physically do something but doesn't necessarily want to that he will always defer to me if I express an opinion.

I'll even express mild opinions, if I have them: "I'd prefer to have take away, but I wouldn't mind making myself soup if you weren't up to it. Do you feel up to getting it?" And again, he will say "Yes".

How do I indicate I don't care?

Would the coin thing work?

I also think it's not your responsibility to worry about railroading him with your decisions; it's his responsibility to stick up for himself and work out how to express his desires, if he feels he's railroaded. Some people are quite happy to defer to others for decision making. If everything works fine when you express your preference, then just stick to expressing your preferences and not trying to 'make' him express his preferences. If you don't immediately have a preference, wait til you do.

ponderous - good point about the timing. I will try to give him more time.

trying - the thing is, this tends to happen when he does have an opinion. If he didn't want to watch the movie, he wouldn't get wishy-washy. Or, maybe I am doing the same thing to him? Yet how could someone never have an opinion? I state it when I have them.

The shows: yes, he likes them. He's basically in control of what's recorded, and usually picks what one we watch as well, unless I say I want something specific. Hmm. It is interesting that he never verbally indicates what he wants -- he'll get it cued up and if I say nothing play it. Is there a clue there? I guess that is a decision, too. Am I hung up on the verbalisation?

As long as you give him an actual moment's peace to think, it's ok to give him a timescale in which to make a decision. What's not ok is to harangue him with question after question in order to hurry the decision.

I think my previous point of deciding yourself how much you want the takeaway is important. If you really want the takeaway, it's ok to put the pressure on - make it clear it's what you want. If you are honestly not fussed (honestly being the important word) then after the first sign of dithering, you say, no problem, I'll get myself some soup, and go and do it

OP I think you're getting a few harsh replies simply because people don't realize how incredibly frustrating it is when you live with people who won't make any decisions! You feel guilty for always getting your way when the other person won't tell you what their opinion is, but trying to get them to make decisions just creates arguments anyway..

We have similar, though not quite as bad as you I think. DH will make his opinion clear on some things, but not for others. So we'd easily have the TV discussions (and he's the same, quite usually he'll just have the TV on so won't be invested in the actual programs), but not the takeaway (he'll always want a takeaway ;)). It creates the most problems for us with parenting and organizing what to do etc.

DH won't make his opinion clear or won't have one, but that also means that whatever I decide he won't like it or have a good time or whatever, and he will bitch endlessly about it both to me and others. It creates a lot of resentment on my part because I want him to step up but can't for the life of me figure out how to make him do it, and his stock argument is that I decide everything.

So not much help sorry, but a bit, fat YANBU from me ;)

Riverriver, maybe you just talk and think too much?!

Are the pair of you stuck in a rut at home?

In my examples it does get to be learned behaviour. No one sane likes a "frosty" tension in a room, so - like avoiding things which burn - we instinctively find a way to avoid it.

I would not be so crass as to suggest it's a gender-specific thing. I can easily believed a group of female friends discussing this about men. However, I found it slightly supportive when (shortly after MrsLH and I moved in together) going out with a group of old (all male) mates - 2 of whom were married - it seemed we had all experienced the famous "no choice choice".

If I had any interest in amateur psychology, I might speculate that this situation arises from childhood, were maybe girls aren't encouraged to be so forthright in their opinions and wants ? Added to observed behaviour from their parents. Unfortunately psychology is of no interest to me

MrsLH and I got over it with talking (see upthread) which meant that when choices were discussed, we were both able to ask each other "do you really mean that ?". Which boils down to - communication.