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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

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To ask how I can explain to DH why page 3 was wrong?

465 replies

Ifyourawizardwhydouwearglasses · 20/01/2015 23:03

He just thinks it was harmless. 'If you don't like it, don't look.' I'd like to educate him but I can't seem to find the words.

He's intelligent but can't seem to get this one.

OP posts:
simontowers2 · 24/01/2015 12:03

Brucetwee - these models will never have their voices heard. They are from the wrong demographic and they might say the wrong thing. We cant be having that. The woolly liberals tell us all how we should think. Dont you know that by now?

OmnipotentQueenOfTheUniverse · 24/01/2015 12:08

Fuck that "silly argument" indeed.

And that's the crux isn't it?

Women and girls say, well, this is what has happened in my life and that is why I hate it and want it gone as it was a direct cause.

And the response is "don't be silly".

Right. What fucking ever.

So you don't care about women and girls being made to feel deeply uncomfortable in their day to day lives in situations they can't avoid.
You don't care that young girls are deliberately having their boundaries reduced and erased.
You might care about it being used to facilitate worse behaviour but hey that's going to happen anyway and so what can you do why take away one of the commonly used tools
You don't care about people feeling they have no choice but to stand on public transport to get away from these men

What you do care about is the absolute right of men to stare at topless pictures of women on public transport, irrespective of the impact that has on the people around them.

You see. I don't agree with you Smile

I also question the motivations of those who think it is very very important that men do that. For a good portion of them, they know it causes a negative reaction and that is something they enjoy. Plenty of men like causing upset to females in public, that's just a fact, and Page 3 is one of the things they can use to do that, without doing anything illegal.

LongDistanceLove · 24/01/2015 12:10

It's not a silly argument at all, are you being purposefully obtuse?

From what I can see, you haven't made a coherent argument for page 3.

simontowers2 · 24/01/2015 12:16

I dont need to longdistance. Some people like it, therefore they buy the paper. If people dont like it, dont buy the paper. Not rocket science.
My point would be this: i hate, i really hate how a tiny demographic of this country tries to tell the rest of society how they should think about things; because they think they know better. That whole mindset is arrogant beyond belief.

OmnipotentQueenOfTheUniverse · 24/01/2015 12:19

You think it is arrogant beyond belief for female children / teens to hate when men look at soft porn while in close proximity to them?

Seriously. Whatever.

And this is the problem isn't it. Men like you just give literally not one fuck.

OmnipotentQueenOfTheUniverse · 24/01/2015 12:23

Adult men who have such a firm and total belief that what they want and what they want to do is of paramount importance even if it causes distress and upset to large numbers of much more vulnerable people on a daily basis.

So you want to sit on the bus and stare at page 3 while seated next to an obviously extremely uncomfortable 14yo girl. Well that's your look out. I'm going to think you're an utter cunt, and that's the way it goes.

BriarRainbowshimmer · 24/01/2015 12:28

Really liked your post at 12:08 Omnipotent

Willferrellisactuallykindahot · 24/01/2015 12:32

I keep hearing that argument but where is the evidence? Porn and sexual images of women are more widespread now than at any time in history. Are rape and sexual assaults on the rise? Is there a link? There is also no proof whatsoever to link the 'objectification' of women to the glass ceiling and all that. If anything, women are doing better in the workplace than at any time in history.

Ou don't get it do you simon.

Things have improved for women. Is there equality yet? No.

So why hinder progression towards equality by keeping things like Page 3 which just embody inequality?

limitedperiodonly · 24/01/2015 12:34

Throughtout this whole press frenzy everyone has had a passionate (and often forceful) opinion about this but the voices of the models has rarely been heard. That is a real shame as they fully deserve to be an integral part of this discussion, instead of being told what/how to think.

Oh, it's a human rights issue. Because Rupert Murdoch has a strong tradition of consulting workers who are surplus to requirements when making business decisions doesn't he?

Just ask the printers...

I happen to support this business decision. The models can always pick up other modelling work or retrain. It's what the rest of us are told to do. They'd have to do it when they reached 25 anyway.

SabrinaMulhollandJjones · 24/01/2015 12:38

Women: "We don't want to see bare boobs in a daily newspaper, we find it is used a tool for harassment against us and we want to be represented equally and fairly in the media."

Simon: "That is arrogant beyond belief."

Yes, Simon. Of course of it is Hmm

simontowers2 · 24/01/2015 12:48

It's not all women though is it sabrina? It's just a tiny demographic, which is highly represented on mumsnet. I'd bet my right arm the majorty of women dont give a fuck. But obviously, this tiny demographic know better dont they?

OmnipotentQueenOfTheUniverse · 24/01/2015 12:52

What?

You imagine that most teenage girls are nonchalent / unaffected / maybe even pleased (?) when men sit next to them on the bus and stare at page 3?

OmnipotentQueenOfTheUniverse · 24/01/2015 12:53

I know what that says about you TBH and you're not going to change your mind are you as you know full well how women and girls feel, and why they feel that way, and as established upthread you just don't care / maybe like that it has the effect.

This is the only conclusion I can come to based on what you have written.

OmnipotentQueenOfTheUniverse · 24/01/2015 12:55

Those fucking men who open page 3 with a flourish and then sit there looking smug while the women and girls around them squirm.

They know exactly what they are doing and they love it.

That is what it is for and the fact of that tweet sent the other day by the sun shows it all up for what it really is, with total clarity.

limitedperiodonly · 24/01/2015 12:57

Women who support it are free to campaign to get it back. But it's nice of you to care about the voiceless.

BruceTwee · 24/01/2015 13:07

Willferrellisactuallykindahot

Interesting username by the way and quite apt for a thread of this type Smile. But I digress.

No one has actually presented any sort of articulate argument for keeping page 3 - I mean, what is the point of it, what does it actually achieve?

Whether we like it or not, the only argument that really matters here is the one of supply and demand.

None of us may like it but unless censorship is applied then there is little we can do until the Sun decides it's time to stop.

In this day and age, there is no other reason why it should exist but given that censorship is not on the cards and RM is the boss then he can do what he likes and not cave into pressure from the NMP3 group.

Sadly that's all there is to it.

Other than that, education is key but the message has to get through to the current demographic who are the market for this kind of thing. I honestly don't know how you get through to a man that gets a kick out of seeing a pair of boobs every morning, I honestly don't.

By the same token, if 40% of buyers are women then you also have to educate them too.

As is very clear from the numbers, support of the NMP3 campaign is miniscule with roughly 250,000 signatures (albeit growing).

If all of the Sun buying public oppose the campaign then you have 2.2 millon versus 250,000. It doesn't matter how solid the moral argument is, from a business perspective it's a no brainer.

SabrinaMulhollandJjones · 24/01/2015 13:17

It's not all women though is it sabrina?

I didn't say it was all women. I'm talking about the women here, now, who are telling you this - and you're continuing to ignore.

NoMorePage3 has got plenty more negative stories for you if you like? Including from ex page 3 models.

simontowers2 · 24/01/2015 13:24

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

SabrinaMulhollandJjones · 24/01/2015 13:29

With the greatest respect Simon, that is a personal attack on Omni, and shows you have not got an argument.

YonicScrewdriver · 24/01/2015 13:38

"the only argument that really matters here is the one of supply and demand."

Bruce, that's wrong.

It wouldn't be illegal for the newspapers to print a posed photo every day of, say, a black man cleaning the shoes of a white man, as one of their features.

You think if the daily telegraph started doing this, and sales went up, the country would shrug and say "supply and demand, innit?"

Do you?

YonicScrewdriver · 24/01/2015 13:42

And Norland, king of the sidetrack... Every single thread about circumcision on MN has a good 95% of posters strongly disagreeing with it, supporting women who want to stand up against their husbands or their partriarchal religious communities against the practice. If you've got a petition or a charity to tell the MN community about, you'll get a good reception. I'd suggest starting a separate thread though as you wouldn't want it to get missed.

ghostyslovesheep · 24/01/2015 13:42

yes or if they had the page 7 under age girl - I mean I bet plenty of people would buy it ...Hmm so supply and demand ..

sex trafficking and prostitution is all supply and demand to

Simon seems unable to accept that lots of women disagree with him - what. a. shocker. Hmm

SabrinaMulhollandJjones · 24/01/2015 13:46

Plus loads of women are against page 3, very probably a majority of them, and plenty of men. It's disingenuous to make out it's a small minority of MNetters and feminists only.

TheOnlyOliviaMumsnet · 24/01/2015 13:52

Ahem

Seff · 24/01/2015 13:54

BruceTwee proving he hasn't read the rest of the thread there.

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