To ask how I can explain to DH why page 3 was wrong?

[Ifyourawizardwhydouwearglasses]

He just thinks it was harmless. 'If you don't like it, don't look.' I'd like to educate him but I can't seem to find the words.

He's intelligent but can't seem to get this one.

Not just young females though, young females that look a certain way.

Not all that should say, rather than not just.

Quite.
And those who dont look like that are either disapproving becase they're jealous or become anotherof themany young women who have breast enlargements or other cosmetic procedures in order to pursue a career in the soft porn industry

For me it's all about the fact that page 3 is used by creepy men to facilitate harassment of women and girls. If men want to look at it in their home fine. Staring at it on the tube while sitting next to a 14 year old girl, not fine. But socially acceptable. Men use it to make it obvious what they are thinking about by looking at it then looking at the chest of the woman next to them. All of that stuff is not fine but in reality girls and women are in that position every day and left feeling objectified and pissed off and maybe upset and there nothing we can do about it really. Because there's nothing wrong with it apparently.

No one has actually presented any sort of articulate argument for keeping page 3 - I mean, what is the point of it, what does it actually achieve?

All the arguments for keeping it tend to consist of 'shut up women, stop getting your (big comfy granny) knickers in a twist about this and set those titties free'.

I was a 'brave' greenham feminist I also oppose page 3 hth

I think that p3 and its ilk (lads mags, some music vids, etc etc) do contribute to rape and sexual assault by clearly stating to all of us that women are here as possessions

I keep hearing that argument but where is the evidence? Porn and sexual images of women are more widespread now than at any time in history. Are rape and sexual assaults on the rise? Is there a link? There is also no proof whatsoever to link the 'objectification' of women to the glass ceiling and all that. If anything, women are doing better in the workplace than at any time in history.

Truth is, there is no solid argument for banning page 3 other than the fact that middle class liberal women dont like it. It really is that simple.

As a child and a teenager I hated it Simon.

What is your response to a 14yo girl who has had a man use page 3 to faciliate creepy behaviour, and been upset and humiliated by that?

Or do you just simply not care, given that has been cited time and again on this thread as a problem, and the people concerned are children not "middle class women", and yet you choose not to bother mentioning it?

Why don't you care about that Simon?

Im not really sure what "facillitate creepy behaviour" means. What i would say is that if somebody is going to behave creepily around children, they will do it regardless.

Page 3 has been directly used to harrass and intimidate and upset women and girls for decades. It is the only soft porn it is really socially acceptable to look at in public. Looking at playboy while sitting on a bus next to a 12yo girl will get people looking at you askance. Staring at page 3 while sitting next to that child will not. The child might well be very uncomfortable. I suppose the answer is either for her to "get over it" - so a 12 yo girl needs to understand that it is normal and fine for men to peruse images of naked women in public places while sitting next to children, and if they feel uncomfortable it is their problem - what does that tell them? The other answer is that they move. Like someone would move if they were sitting next to someone who smelt really bad, or seemed dangerous, or was behaving inappropriately towards them. Right. I have seen an elderly woman stand up and move and lose her seat because the man next to her turned to page 3 and then sat there staring at it. So that was good right? She was wrong and out of order to feel how she did so of course she should have to stand.

I find these attitudes awful. Just a total fuck you to people around, zero empathy, just awful.

That is what I think.

What is the point of p3?
Why do people enjoy looking at it?

Its a sexual image of a pretty young woman. Its purely decorative. There is no male comparison. Men are not objectified in this way.
As a teenager it made me feel very uncomfortable to see men looking at it because I was aware that it tells us that is what we are for.

Come on then simon lets hear a rational and coherent argument from you for why page 3 should stay, we're on tenterhooks here.......

Simon maybe you don't understand because you've never been a teenage girl, has that occurred to you? And has it then occurred to you that as you don't understand, you might do well to listen and try, rather than dismiss the things that people tell you about out of hand?

If you are on the tube next to a man who has his leg pressed against yours and sometimes looks a bit lingeringly at your chest area it is unsettling. If he does that with page 3 open, looking between the image and your chest, it is much much creepier. Try to imagine yourself in those two situations. See if you can understand how that feels different.

For fucks sake.

simon of you were doing a 'pros and cons of page 3' list, what would be on the 'pros' list?

It is the only soft porn it is really acceptable to look at in public.

Sitting next to a girl on the bus reading the times is not going to cause her any kind of reaction whatsoever. Sitting next to her while staring at some tits might well.

What her reaction is will depend on her age. For many girls it is around 12 that they often start to find it uncomfortable - upsetting / confusing / upsetting / whatever - when this happens. And maybe that man isn't doing anything directly to her - although lots do - maybe he's just sitting there looking at it because it's AOK right? For me, I have always felt very uncomfortable sitting next to men on public transport while they stare at page 3. I hated it as a child and I hate it as an adult. Quite aside from the times that men were deliberately creepy with it.

Simon if you can not understand how women feel when some random bloke sits next to them and opens page 3 then you will never get it

page 3 reduces women to tits and ass

Also I would question the idea that 12 year old girls (for eg) who feel uncomfortable when forced into close proximity with men who are looking at soft porn are in the wrong?

If we tell children that this is something that they must get used to and feel comfortable with then that's a deliberate attempt to erase some of their boundaries isn't it?

I wrote that just now - and of course the people who support page 3 say that people who don't like it should just get over it and there's nothing wrong with it - and that includes female children obviously - and I've just realised how disturbing that actually is when you think about it, isn't it.

I mean if a man said come and sit next to me little girl and look at these sexualised images of women, that would be considered bad, right?

But when it's Page 3 and the man is on the tube holding it open under her nose, if she doesn't like that, it's her problem? For being a prude, as I understand it? Can you even be a prude when you're 12?

Sorry for all the posts it just makes me so angry, This happened to me a few times when I was young and I feel very strongly about it (you might have guessed!).

Don't suppose any of you who have such angst over this, would be interested in campaigning to stop male genital mutilation?

Every year, millions of boys have a part of their genitalia removed to satisfy 'religous purposes' not on health-grounds. These boys are defenceless babies when this mutilation occurs. They need protecting.

LumpySpacedPrincess

You knock yourself out . I never said it was about nudity just that it was an intersting viewpoint. The fact that it came from a model was of particular interest to me as it was the first that I'd read.

Throughtout this whole press frenzy everyone has had a passionate (and often forceful) opinion about this but the voices of the models has rarely been heard.

That is a real shame as they fully deserve to be an integral part of this discussion, instead of being told what/how to think.

I fully support the campaign and don't think it'll be long before it goes for good. However, I can also understand why people are totally indifferent and these people should not be criticised for not prioritising the campaign.

There will always be creepy blokes. And the blokes being described above are proper creeps. They would be finding other ways to creep round young girls if page 3 didnt exist. It's a silly argument.

Omni I hear you - as a child we used to put newspaper on the tables at school for paining ...it was horrible when the page three girl was put out - all the sniggering - it just was uncomfortable

and yes I think many of us have had the creepy 'looking at page three and you' situation

no Simon people are telling you a) it facilitates and normalises creepy behaviour b) giving you examples of how it HAS effected them c) asking you to give reasons why YOU think it's brilliant

you are ignoring womens voices

It's a newspaper. For news. Naked women posing aren't news. And newspapers are not porn magazines.