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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

in thiking you don't generally tend to have sex with people who have been stalking you?

239 replies

RoyallyFuckedOff · 14/01/2015 20:48

And that teenager can't groom and adult? Angry

Iwww.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-30813335

From the judge Judge Greenberg said she believed the victim was "intelligent and manipulative" and "showed no compunction" about lying when it suited herJudge Greenberg said she believed the victim was "intelligent and manipulative" and "showed no compunction" about lying when it suited her

The charming fellow had sex with a teenager the same week his wife was miscarrying their baby and apparently that was grounds for him being "weak".

AIBU to think he is scum and that the judge is a rape myth peddling idiot who should never be allowed to hold a gavel after insulting a victim?

OP posts:
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YonicSleighdriver · 16/01/2015 20:47

I believe you, Staircase. Thanks for your blog piece.

MrsHathaway · 16/01/2015 20:57

Call 101 and say you've had rape threats by DM/tweet. I suspect it has to be dealt with by specialists, maybe at the Met? but your local lot ought to know how to refer if they can't deal.

Andrewofgg · 16/01/2015 21:11

Thread on another blog which I copy without endorsement or warranty as to accuracy, as we say in the law biz:

I was at trial judge got it right jury gave perverse verdict. 6 of 8 counts innocent – 4 of which described incidents that led to first guilty… ?? One count had to be thrown out as victims mum called police during trial to say a date victim said they were having sex- she was actually in Spain on holiday. So much more beside. Judge right. Wait for appeal

Anyone know anything about this?

StaircaseAtTheUniversity · 16/01/2015 22:41

Thanks Mrs. H I definitely will as that threat was especially vile.

Andrewfogg where is this blog? Am talking to someone on Twitter who is local and knows the school and has also said some of the evidence was disproven but don't know if these are just rape apologist odd balls or not.

Andrewofgg · 16/01/2015 23:14

uk criminal law blog

alreadytaken · 17/01/2015 08:57

I've read that blog and the reports that the child lied about dinner money and to get out of PE. However anyone who knows 16 year olds knows that remembering the date something happened is not a strong point, especially if you are talking about something that went on for 18 months, and there's a difference between lying to get out of PE (done that yourself?) and accusing a teacher of inappropriate behaviour. It's easy to see why a tempted teacher might think if I do have sex with this child I'm quite safe because no-one will believe their word against mine. It also explains why his wife can hope he's innocent.

I've also read about someone with Mr Kerner's log in changing a record to show the child was in class when she was marked absent (and claims they were having sex elsewhere) and about mobile phone records and a coded diary that support her statements. She could apparently describe his house (where she claims they had sex) and his underwear and his explanations of how she could do this (saw pictures on my ipad, I undressed for a school event and left my clothes out) don't convince me.

I wasn't in court but isn't it just as likely that the perverse verdicts were actually the acquiitals? As I've said before it appears the jury convicted where there was supporting evidence and acquitted when it was her word against his. But if there is evidence to support some of her claims are the rest fantasy or just a time when he was more careful?

He apparently submitted an appeal before the sentence was handed out, I think he'd be well advised to drop it.

StaircaseAtTheUniversity · 17/01/2015 09:53

The "left his clothes out" for a school event thing is bollocks. What teacher in their right mind would leave a pile of clothes hanging around with their pants in plain sight for the kids to see???!!! Ridiculous!!! If he did that then he's twice as stupid as he looks and frankly it even sounds like a lie.

FafferTime · 17/01/2015 11:08

Apologies I've not read the full thread, but from an earlier comment checked out CIF. I'm utterly shocked at how many people, I'm assuming men, come down on the side of the judge. They simply have no concept of how damaging this type of abuse is.

www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2015/jan/16/teacher-who-has-sex-with-pupil-is-no-victim

Andrewofgg · 17/01/2015 11:46

Faffer You assume men bit there were posters here who made the same mistake about the judge! Being bloody silly is equal opps. alreadytaken Thanks. If he were my client I would tell him to thank his stars and drop the appeal now!

Berts · 17/01/2015 14:01

Stay away from CIF comments threads if you value your sanity! I mean seriously, these are the kind of people who read feminist columnists in the Guardian every day just so they can rant about how much they hate feminists and the Guardian. Don't try to engage rationally with insane people (and I say that as someone with my own colourful mental health history).

Also, that post on a blog from someone claiming to be a juror? Probably just another attention seeking wingnut, just like Staircase's rape-threat guy, sitting safely in his mum's spare room, congratulating himself on having upset a complete stranger for reasons he probably doesn't genuinely even feel strongly about.

Disengage! Listen to all the normal, right-minded people on here and stay away from comment threads! That way only depressing crap lies...

Berts · 17/01/2015 14:25

And Staircase, thanks for being brave enough to speak out in public - you're much braver than I am Flowers

StaircaseAtTheUniversity · 17/01/2015 14:49

Thanks. I've come a long way in terms of being able to discuss it. I used to keep quiet and pretend it hadn't happened, then have a nervous breakdown and ended up in several years of therapy. After that my motto became "he made me tell enough lies- I will never lie because of him again". I'm determined to speak out, I refuse to be a secret.

The CIF comments are generally just misoginists and people who like arguing for the sake of arguing I think. You could really get angry and upset about it if you let yourself. But you're quite right- it's just morons in their mums bedrooms who for some reason are so angry that they need to direct it out at a "cause". Disturbing how many champions Kerner has though.

TheChandler · 17/01/2015 17:12

Staircase Sad The "left his clothes out" for a school event thing is bollocks. What teacher in their right mind would leave a pile of clothes hanging around with their pants in plain sight for the kids to see???!!! Ridiculous!!! If he did that then he's twice as stupid as he looks and frankly it even sounds like a lie.

If the newspaper report of the case is accurate, he also claimed at one point that when giving his statement he had been unable to remember his own name, as he had only got a few hours sleep the night before due to stress.

I know lack of sleep affects different people in different ways, but working in a profession where I've had to pull all nighters and being an insomniac, I don't think I've ever been unable to remember my own name.

What does that say about the veracity of someone who makes such outlandish claims relating to the facts of this case? It does possibly suggest someone who is confused with possibly all their own lies and trying to justify that.

HelenPat79 · 17/01/2015 18:48

Stuart Kerner sounds like a manipulative liar but should he really get the same length sentence as a teacher who pursues a pupil who isn't interested in them? I think most people would say no and I'm sure the legal guidelines say that as well. So if a teacher who goes after a reluctant pupil would rightly get a longer sentence then it's up to the judge in each case to explain why each one has got whatever sentence they have got. That's all the judge did here.

Maybe she could have phrased it better but (a) she didn't say that he, or any other man, is incapable of controlling himself, what she said was he gave in to temptation (which is completely different to saying he wasn't capable of saying no), and (b) she didn't say the girl groomed him she said "if grooming is the right word" (which of course it isn't but many anti-abuse campaigners have used it to just mean flirting, so it's obviously not only this judge who is confused about what it really means).

There's no need for people to go apeshit on the judge just for explaining why this man wouldn't get the same sentence as a more abusive case. It's her job to explain that and it would be the same if he committed any other crime, shoplifting, assault, even with murder you get different sentences depending on the circs.

kawliga · 17/01/2015 18:51

I have no doubt that his teenage victim “wanted it”, that horrible phrase being trotted out by good old fashioned sexist pigs and trolls all over the internet. But whether she wanted it or not, the children in our care are children, and it is our business to preserve their innocence while we are in loco parentis.

Thank you Staircase for sharing this. 'Wanted it' is completely meaningless and stupid - children 'want' so many things and it doesn't make it ok to take advantage of them. In no other context would people think it ok to hurt or neglect a child's safety because the child 'wanted' it.

alreadytaken · 18/01/2015 11:03

a judge is a highly qualified professional and should know that they are dealing with a highly sensitive case. She should have stopped at there is no evidence that you groomed this child and Her friends described her, accurately in my view, as stalking you. That is more than sufficient to explain why she gave a low sentence without the victim blaming suggestion that the child groomed him. She could also have said that he was previously of good character and that losing his career would prevent him from being in a similar situation if future. Talking about the victim as a manipulative liar was unnecessary - she should have focused on his duty to resist temptation and to avoid the child.

At best the judge is a fool who needs to learn to express her judgements better but her victim blaming is why there has been such an outcry about the sentence.

I'd like to know if he reported the child's infatuation to the head and took steps to avoid her (in line with the child protection policies of schools). It doesn't sound as if he did as it hasn't been mentioned in any report and you'd have expected both hiis defence and the judge to refer to it. If not that is suggestive of guilt for all the offences.

ChoochiWoo · 18/01/2015 12:04

but 16 is the the age of consent why has it gone to court?

StaircaseAtTheUniversity · 18/01/2015 12:21

helenpat79 I personally think that it's irrelevant as to whether she was "interested" in him or not. His persuing the relationship was wrong and he knew that so even if she was "interested" it was his business to ignore it. So to my mind the sentence should really be the same whether she was making herself clearly avaliable or not.

choochiwoo the law was changed via the Sexual Offences Act 2003, sec 16. If the child is over 16 but under 18 and the adult is in a position of trust. Too late for people like me but supposedly there to protect students over the age of consent but still with adults in loco parentis of them ie at school. www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2003/42/section/16

in thiking you don't generally tend to have sex with people who have been stalking you?
HouseWhereNobodyLives · 18/01/2015 15:34

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HouseWhereNobodyLives · 18/01/2015 15:37

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HouseWhereNobodyLives · 18/01/2015 15:40

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skyeskyeskye · 18/01/2015 15:55

I was reading this thread thinking that even if the girl was lying on his desk naked screaming f* me now, that HE is still the responsible adult in a position of trust and that it doesn't matter what she did, how much she was willing or led him on, that he still should not have abused that position.

Then I read the post by staircase which says it all really. Thank you for sharing that and sorry that you had to go throught it. Girls will always fall for their teachers, but it is the teacher's job to be the adult and to stay away from the girl. If they struggle with that then they should go to their headteacher and ask for help to deal with the situation.

There was a girl at my school who had an affair with the teacher. It was common knowledge. She was his star pupil. He was married with 2 young DC. By the time the girl left the school, he was advised to go and work at a different school.... I believe he did so, but then there was another incident and he ended up working in a supermarket. He was a great teacher and very good at motivating pupils.

It ruined his life, but it was his job to say no, it was his job to stay away from her, no matter how much she wanted him.

noblegiraffe · 18/01/2015 17:22

I'm a teacher. At school I am privy to all sorts of info about the kids. Those whose parents have just split up, those who are self-harming and depressed, those in care. For a responsible teacher this is useful information about how to best deal with issues with these students. For an unscrupulous sexual predator it would be a bloody menu and toolkit of how to best approach these kids to get what you want.

Being in a position of authority at school gives you all sorts of control over the kids. I can summon them, dismiss them, make their day by singling them out for praise, make them feel special by giving them extra attention. Because I'm in charge, this adds value to what I say over that of their peers. As they say, with great power comes great responsibility.

And that is why it matters that he was her teacher, even if she was 16. It wasn't an equal relationship and he held all the cards.

TheChandler · 18/01/2015 18:37

Stuart Kerner sounds like a manipulative liar but should he really get the same length sentence as a teacher who pursues a pupil who isn't interested in them? I think most people would say no and I'm sure the legal guidelines say that as well. So if a teacher who goes after a reluctant pupil would rightly get a longer sentence then it's up to the judge in each case to explain why each one has got whatever sentence they have got. That's all the judge did here.

The whole point of this type of crime is that some people who groom much younger children or adults in whom they are in a position of trust over is that they can be very skilful at making it seem as if the victim is chasing them, or even making the victim believe that they want them. Most grooming type offences are characterised in exactly this way - the schoolchild really does believe at the time that they want the adult teacher, otherwise it wouldn't happen. Its part of their modus operandi. Crimes are composed of the mens rea (intention) of the crime and the actus reus (act), and proving the intention of the victim is not really relevant. In practical terms, you are basically suggesting that teachers who have sex with willing schoolchildren should not be criminalised, because they can get those children to think that they want them. When in fact, there are many examples of children who later in life realise who traumatised they have been, how their lives have been adversely affected, and so on.

Now you could argue that because we have an adversarial system, our criminal law is characterised by all sorts of things that affect sentencing, but its a balancing act, and as a society, we simply do not find it acceptable to go around thinking that children entice adults who have a position of trust over them. We expect those adults to exercise restraint. I'm not sure what type of society you want to live in, but I don't want to live in one where we require children to exercise more restraint in fending off their teachers, or in not allowing themselves to be attracted tot hem, than the other way round.

HelenPat There's no need for people to go apeshit on the judge just for explaining why this man wouldn't get the same sentence as a more abusive case. It's her job to explain that and it would be the same if he committed any other crime, shoplifting, assault, even with murder you get different sentences depending on the circs.

Judges and judgments are criticised all the time, its part of how we as a society decide what makes good law and which cases will be followed by later cases as being good judgments. Its normal. Judges must perform a balancing act, but in this case the judge's comments have been pretty offensive, and it show poor judgement on her part. This is actually kind of irrelevant from the facts of the case, because the judge's comments, if not challenged, could be relied upon in later cases to do as you say, to downgrade the offence of grooming, particularly very skilled, clever grooming where the Accused is very successful in completely dominating and influencing their victim, as being some kind of lesser offence.

Andrewofgg · 18/01/2015 18:43

TheChandler Sentencing remarks in one case are never - never - treated as precedent in another or quoted at another sentencing. Which does not make what HHJ Greenberg said seem any less bizarre.