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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

in thiking you don't generally tend to have sex with people who have been stalking you?

239 replies

RoyallyFuckedOff · 14/01/2015 20:48

And that teenager can't groom and adult? Angry

Iwww.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-30813335

From the judge Judge Greenberg said she believed the victim was "intelligent and manipulative" and "showed no compunction" about lying when it suited herJudge Greenberg said she believed the victim was "intelligent and manipulative" and "showed no compunction" about lying when it suited her

The charming fellow had sex with a teenager the same week his wife was miscarrying their baby and apparently that was grounds for him being "weak".

AIBU to think he is scum and that the judge is a rape myth peddling idiot who should never be allowed to hold a gavel after insulting a victim?

OP posts:
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YonicSleighdriver · 16/01/2015 14:48

I assume the CIFers are ignoring the inconvenient fact that he was found guilty?

ApocalypseThen · 16/01/2015 14:56

Found guilty of something they don't consider a crime, really. You know what them with vaginas are like. Also, we all make mistakes. Plus, feminazis lowered the age of consent, so reap what you sow, "ladies".

YonicSleighdriver · 16/01/2015 15:02

And was their solution to the "can't help themselves" problem that 16 year old girls stop going to school or that predatory men stopped teaching them, I wonder?

I don't remember feminists having anything to do with lowering the age if consent...oh, it was set at 16 in 1885 when it was raised from 13 to prevent child prostitution.

Damn feminazis like W E Gladstone. Damn him to hell.

ApocalypseThen · 16/01/2015 15:08

And was their solution to the "can't help themselves" problem that 16 year old girls stop going to school or that predatory men stopped teaching them, I wonder?

I think it's that everyone should just let nature take its course and if they somehow happened to be in a position of authority over a teenaged girl somehow, someday, they wouldn't have to answer for their actions. Their exciting, erotically charged, sanctioned by right thinking middle aged men actions.

Except in the case of their own daughters, in which instance they'll do time.

BreakingDad77 · 16/01/2015 15:22

Also I don't get where the myth that feminists think its ok/dont speak up over female teachers engaging with male pupils keeps popping up, in relation to these cases on websites????

ApocalypseThen · 16/01/2015 15:28

Indeed, I've never, ever yet heard a feminist argue that it's other than an egregious abuse of power and position by a woman and should be equally treated in law.

BarbarianMum · 16/01/2015 15:35

I don't think such websites, or those who frequent them, see much need for the truth, or reality. It interferes too much with their world view.

PasstheDaimbars · 16/01/2015 16:13

Considering we women have these all over empowering vaginas tis a wonder we're not the supreme rulers of the world.

God damn lazy on our parts.

And our 'parts', must work harder…

Andrewofgg · 16/01/2015 17:36

In fact the age of consent (which is arbitrary, that's unavoidable) has been raised in the case of teacher and pupil; and quite right so.

It's odd that if a pupil leaves school and goes to sixth-form college after GCSEs and encounters a teacher at her school (assuming no prior grooming by him, chance encounter as can happen in a small town) and he sleeps with her, no offence is committed because he is a former teacher. But I suppose protection has to end somewhere.

MrsTerryPratchett · 16/01/2015 17:40

Andrew in some cases there is a guideline. Two years after a client leaves some services, for example, a relationship is possible. So, if I dated a former resident of my former shelter, for example, the best practice would be not to go there for him not to have used services for two years and me not to have worked there for two years either. There should have been no communication in between either so grooming shouldn't be an issue.

Andrewofgg · 16/01/2015 17:47

Agree, MrsTerryPratchett but sex in breach of guidelines does not amount to a criminal offence. It's only the current relationship which does. I would have no difficulty about a teacher who had intercourse with a former but recent pupil being sacked but he (or indeed she, that happens too) can't be prosecuted.

It reminds me of a client of mine, c. 1981, charged with what was then called u.s.i. with his neighbour's daughter of fifteen. He insisted that there had been no sexual contact before sixteen but freely admitted what would now be called grooming - which was not then an offence. The jury believed him, or at any rate were not sure beyond reasonable doubt. Neither was I, although it was not my job to judge the case. On the jury's verdict he fell on one side of a line which is now drawn in a different place, but it has to be drawn somewhere.

Dragonfly71 · 16/01/2015 18:29

I was a youth worker, paid by local authority,so not voluntary or unofficial at the age of 19. I worked with lads only a year or two younger than me.They used to try it on all the time. I never responded, and always made the boundaries clear. I understood I was in a position of trust and would lose my job if those boundaries were breached. Simple really.
There is NO excuse and the judges comments are so dangerous, they give credence to victim blaming. Plus it's demeaning to suggest that men are not capable of resisting "temptation".
Really shocked by this judgement.

fancyanotherfez · 16/01/2015 18:43

It seems ridiculous that anyone in a position of authority, especially a 40 something experienced teacher would give lifts to girls in their cars, friend them on facebook or do anything that this man did. A young student teacher would know not to do this. It's career suicide, even if they don't do anything and are entirely innocent. The repurcussions are too enormous if any student decides to make a malicious complaint, which this wasnt clearly. She could have thrown herself at him naked and he should have sent her away with a stern talking to. I have taught in schools where girls have had crushes on male teachers. Staff are given safeguarding training until it comes out of their ears. All the male teachers I worked with would go to extraordinary lengths to avoid any personal contact with students. No Facebook friends, no personal phone numbers, no lifts home, even if they live next door and it's pouring with rain. I was listening to someone on the Jeremy Vine show saying that young girls engineer situations through social media and get lifts home in cars, but it's up to the teacher to say absolutely no.

Andrewofgg · 16/01/2015 18:49

Indeed Fancy - My ex BIL, a teacher, once found that one of his sixth-formers had moved to a house near his (just by chance) and went to great lengths to avoid coming and going when she did. In the end, inevitably, she noticed him and my DSis getting into the car one Saturday morning but that was six weeks before her A-levels and he could manage the situation after that. He one told me that he had never, ever, fancied a female pupil but some of the mothers, that was another matter!

TheChandler · 16/01/2015 19:14

Perhaps we also need to look at how we appoint judges in this country. The UK is relatively unusual in requiring such a longish period of experience in practice for judges, but it still produces a remarkably male dominated judging profession, (which does not reflect the far higher number of female students now studying law even though that was the case when I did my law degree 20 years ago) (arguably you could say that some female appointments, a bit like in politics, are selected for those who fit into this). Anyway, perhaps we need more academically qualified judges, as well as experienced, as opposed to being expert in the tricks of procedure and evidence in one very specific area of the profession - more general, all round talented lawyers.

Andrewofgg · 16/01/2015 19:32

You will always get mavericks, and even maverick remarks from usually non-maverick judges. Just as you will always different sentences for what might seem similar cases - although of course no two cases are the same.

At least you will as long as judges are human beings, not machines.

StaircaseAtTheUniversity · 16/01/2015 19:32

I have been away from the thread as I had a busy day but like everyone else here (thank God!) I've been raging.

I blogged about this earlier and thought you lot might be interested. Very sadly, when I shared this on my Twitter page I relieved upwards of ten messages- from men and women- calling me a slut and a whore. I also had a message from a man saying I deserved what I got and deserved to be "repeatedly raped" and one from a woman saying by speaking out I was "an attention seeking whore" who was trying to "justify being a slut". What a beautiful world we live in, eh? Hmm

In Response to the Case of Stuart Kerner, By a former "intelligent and manipulative" teenage girl

Like many, I was shocked and upset this week to hear the Judge’s comments in the case of Stuart Kerner, a teacher who had sex with his 16 year old pupil and then was told that she “groomed” him. I know that many others were upset by the judges words, including child abuse charities, but for me the cold shiver that the Judge’s words gave me was a bit too close to home, after all once upon a time I was that “intelligent and manipulative” teenage girl.

Now happily married with a daughter, a career and headed towards middle age, it’s hard even for me to remember the teenage girl I was. Long legged and busty in a school uniform, it’s hard to know if I caught the eye of my young and flirtatious teacher or if he caught mine. Twinkly and charming, Bob- we’ll call him Bob- was in his late twenties, funny, intelligent and most of all, worldly. What started at the age of 13 as a cat and mouse game of flirty ping-pong ended at 16 in frantic and passionate snogging down back alleys and finally, intense sex in his marital bed. What had been doublentandres and close to the bone humour that we batted back and forth at one another: me sitting on the desk in front of him with my already too short school skirt creeping up my supple young thighs, moments of breathless confusion as we got too close in the dark of the wings of the school stage, became something illegal with that first kiss.

Was I intelligent and manipulative? Certainly. I knew what I wanted and I went out of my way to get it. My new found sexual power was intoxicating; I was drunk on it and high on lust and secrets and hormones. I fancied him like mad and when he made the first move towards turning what had been several years of tinder-box like pressure into a sexual relationship, I fell hook line and sinker. After all, I didn't just fancy Bob, the older man who gave me books to read and CDs to listen to, I loved him too.

Aye, there’s the rub- as I highlighted dreamily in my A Level copy of Hamlet as old Bob stood at the front of the class- in these cases of teacher and pupil that make it onto the news, everyone has an opinion about the sex. On Twitter angry feminists battle angry misogynists and talk about the damage that these sexual relationships do to the teenagers in their unscrupulous teachers care. And of course, they do. I was catapulted head first into a sexual relationship that was far beyond my maturity level, not for me the teenage fumblings and wet snogging at teenage parties. I was very quickly having very intense sex, lead by a man who had had almost as many lovers as I was years old. As a professional there is no doubt that he shouldn't have been doing it, and that in doing it he had crossed a line which, in my opinion ensured that he should never have been allowed to teach again. But the sex was nothing like as damaging as the mess he made of my head. As I have mentioned I loved him and the worst of it all is that he told me that he loved me too.

It is important to note that despite my pursuing my teacher, just as Kerner’s pupil may well have pursued him, when push came to shove and the line was crossed, it was he who instigated it. Whilst I cannot speak for all young people in these situations, I suspect that is often the case. For all my bluster and intelligence and manipulation of the situation I would never have made the first move, it was he who did that.

As I mentioned, I am married now as I hurtle towards middle age at alarming speed. I am not married to Bob. 16 became 17 and 17 became 18 and all too soon I was 21 and on the cusp of adulthood, almost a graduate thinking about the future. And there, after more than eight years of flirtation and lust and sex and promises, Bob went. Was I now too old for him? Possibly. Too mature? Certainly. Because the fact was that as I had, at 13 years old and in lust with this funny and immature man, had absolutely no concept of the consequences of any of this, nor did he really. By now in his mid thirties, Bob was a man-child who couldn't truly see that he was responsible for this mess. I had a nervous breakdown.

I was never the same again, never the same as I should have been. Broken down by the fact that I never had a normal youth, what Bob robbed from me was not sexual really, it was a different kind of innocence. The same is true of Stuart Kerner. I have no doubt that his teenage victim “wanted it”, that horrible phrase being trotted out by good old fashioned sexist pigs and trolls all over the internet. But whether she wanted it or not, the children in our care are children, and it is our business to preserve their innocence while we are in loco parentis. The men and women who have sexual relationships with their pupils are perhaps not paedophiles or sexual abusers in the traditional sense, but what they do is abuse. It robs their victim of something that should be a right: a normal teenage hood, a sexuality that they discover themselves, love that can be reciprocated by those with similar levels of maturity.

The girl in Kerners case and the many like her- the many like me- may pursue these men, but the truth is that they don’t know what they are pursuing. The Judge is wrong, no child can groom an adult. It does adult men a disservice to suggest that they can be so easily manipulated and we owe it to the professional integrity of our teachers and the faith we have in men as a gender to disregard such comments. Whether a teenage girl is “asking for it” or not, no adult man who has a duty of care towards her should ever allow themselves to cross that line. If we believe that they are ever justified in doing so then we do both the children we are protecting and the adults that we trust to look after them a huge disservice.

Andrewofgg · 16/01/2015 19:36

Staircase If I may respectfully and humbly say so, you showed immense courage in making this thought-provoking memory public.

I am so sorry that members of our species, of your gender and mine, insulted you as they did.

Flowers
OddFodd · 16/01/2015 19:42

In theory though, judges should come up against all sorts in their professional lives which should enable them to keep a finger on the pulse of public opinion.

And before you all shout at me that public opinion shouldn't sway courtroom rulings, in 2008 teaching union leaders were complaining about the revisions to the 2001 sexual offences act applying to pupil/teacher relationships where the pupil was over the age of consent. Can you imagine that happening now?!

The judge isn't very old (for a judge - she's early 60s) and grew up in Kilburn so it's not like she lived in a rarefied world her entire life. I wonder if her summing up speech was based on this man having a long and (presumably) spotless career up until this point. It sounds like she was casting around for reasons as to why a member of the SMT suddenly failed to exercise appropriate behaviour around a young woman. She's a lot closer in age to Kernow than the victim so I suspect she really put herself in his shoes. And basically felt sorry for him.

I'm not excusing her comments at all, just trying to understand her POV because it seems batshit. And I'm assuming she's not actually batshit.

MrsHathaway · 16/01/2015 19:43

Thank you, Staircase.

And, though it ought to go without saying, I believe you.

Have you reported the tweets to the police? You should.

fancyanotherfez · 16/01/2015 19:43

staircase I am staggered that anyone could read that and still say those things! What a world we live in. Unfortunately, the internet allows the terminally stupid to find each other and inflict themselves on the rest of us Flowers

OddFodd · 16/01/2015 19:47

Staircase - sorry, x-posted. What a beautiful piece of writing. I'm so sorry you went through that and furious that you've suffered abuse. Twitter is increasingly being occupied by people that used to post on newspaper comment pages sadly :(

StaircaseAtTheUniversity · 16/01/2015 20:00

Thank you everyone. And thank you MrsHatherway- it means a lot that you believe me. You'd think everyone would but they don't. Even now. Bobs wife- who he had actually left and not been with for more than two years- actually got back together with him when it was all over with me. She called me and asked me to come to her house and we sat for an hour and she told me in no uncertain terms that she didn't believe a word of it and thought I was just a trollop and not to make a fuss as no one would believe me. Utter bollocks as she more than knee what was going on as he had left her and she had found condoms about his person and she had asked him straight out if it was me he was seeing. 15 years on they're still married and he's a deputy head teacher in the countryside. Appalling when I allow myself to think about it. And awful that there were no laws for me, I couldn't do anything. I never fail to be saddened by the fact that clearly having a husband- any husband- was better than nothing for her.

She wasn't alone in just wanting to pretend it never happened though. When it all came to light I remember bumping into my old chemistry teacher on the street and he said "I really can't see how that happened, Staircase. Bob was always totally harmless". I assume this brilliant character analysis was based on the fact that he was podgy and a bit geeky looking and wore glasses and thus couldn't possibly be a manipulative and dangerous sexual predator Grin I've made my peace with the fact I was largely castigated by the community for what happened but it truly was terrible that so many adults rallied around him and protected him. He shagged another girl after me and was fired from his job but his wife- also a teacher- helped him to get work at her school.

I haven't reported tweets- to be honest didn't know I could. What's the procedure? Most were just trolling bullshit but the rape one was especially disturbing.

HouseWhereNobodyLives · 16/01/2015 20:32

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HouseWhereNobodyLives · 16/01/2015 20:35

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