To wonder if many terrorists are not religious fanatics at all? Just nihilistic and violent

[fromparistoberlin73]

I have been reading the profiles of the Paris murders . These people don't strike me as being devout and religious folk. They all have a track record of crime , alienation and violence. I suspect the same of many others . Did they even give a shit about the cartoons? Or did they just relish a chance , a cause that allowed them to vent whatever festering violence they had?

This had been nagging at me for some time . To address the issue we need to understand the drivers , and it's hugely complex .

Rather than slating Islamic fundamentalism (and I am not massive fan) would we be better served looking at prisons and what goes on there as that seems to be the root cause in many cases ??

The Government's Prevent programme has a whole section on counter-radicalisation in prisons. Prevent was started under the Labour govt, and updated by this lot in 2011.

I tend to agree with you. These 'causes' whether religious, territorial, political or otherwise just seem to be an excuse for young (statistically), male (statistically), sociopaths (let's hope) people to rampage, killing and maiming and raping. Whether it's Britons, Germans, Christians, Muslims, seems to make no difference.

I read a great book about the long march of the very early Mao days and how little violence was done to the women there. It seemed to be quite idealistic and different. Didn't end up that way, of course.

YANBU. I think you make really good points, and I was just mulling over that point about prisons today. Far from being a deterrent, it seems to be an ideal breeding ground for like minded people to meet and for vulnerable people (as in vulnerable to being radicalised) to be influenced by others, build networks, and they haven't got much to lose. I don't know what the answer is; putting people guilty of terror offences into isolation would probably be unworkable and possibly even illegal?

Yep, I often wonder the same.

Broken . But what what about the mass shootings in the us? As an example . People do vile shit all of the time . Not necessarily led through religion !

The most credible research on terrorism demonstrates that terrorists are psychologically normal. Not sociopaths, not psychopaths, but psychologically normal. Disaffected, alienated, yes but 'abnormal', no.

religion which ever one it is, gives many people hope and comfort but let's remember it has caused the death of millions over the centuries, what with wars and the like. there are some countries that used to have a good method of dealing with traitors/killers etc which would be ideal for this scum, they were throw into a dry well and literally forgotten about, extreme yes, but so are their actions, we must not bow down to the terrorists under any circumstances.

Agree , reading about Hayat and her husband they are disaffected (and had not so great childhoods) but devout fundamentalists ? Meh

i meant to say i don't think there are bad religions but some things are just taken to the extreme by some people, what sort of god condones mass murder? sounds pretty sick to me.

This really annoys me.

They TELL US why they are doing it...but we know better?

I am sure the reasons are complex and myriad - but yes, their religion has an awful lot to do with it.

I don't think most people in the country a) have the vaguest idea just how violent and inhumane the doctrines of Islam are and b) just how devoutly millions of Muslims across the globe believe every last word of it.

Religion is largely irrelevant in this country...so it's very easy for us in our comfortable homes to smugly assume every other religious person alive is as peace loving as Aunty Doris who does the flowers in church every week.

And when things kick off abroad...when hundreds of thousands riot because a teddy was named Mohammed...we patronisingly decide it's because they are all socially disaffected, the poor loves.

Go live in Pakistan for a month, see the barbarity and intolerance there, listen to the fanatical ranting...then come back and tell us that none of this is caused by religion at all.

It's sad that the people who are drawn in to become radicalised (mostly) come from backgrounds that are (maybe) disjointed, brutalised, and deprived. (not that it's an excuse, lots of people have to endure that but manage to break the vicious cycle as adults)

Sad in the way that I feel compassion for someone who's gone through that as a child, as well as sad that the way they've come to terms with their past is to inflict pain on other people.

It's easy (ish) for groups to feed off this and to give them the new identity they must crave, where they can feel as though they belong, are important, and have a part to play in improving the world (which they must believe).

I know there isn't a one-size-fits-all profile of who becomes a terrorist, but you can't help but try to make sense of it when it's clear that religion has been twisted so much in a person's head that it's come out the exact opposite of what the religion is actually trying to teach, ie people, be nice to each other eh?

I have to disagree with 'Religion makes normal people do wicked and terrible things' No, men can make other men (and women) do wicked and terrible things, religion as a living breathing entity doesn't exist, and certainly doesn't make people do anything. If it did we'd all live in the same way under it's spell.

And I should add....."they are not religious fanatics at all. Just nihilistic and violent"? Their religion is nihilistic and violent...that's the point.

And no...this does not mean all Muslims are. Not by any stretch. But their religion is.

Any truly peaceful religion would simply not give rise to extremist violence. There would be nothing to take to the extreme, would there?

"Religion is an insult to human dignity. With or without it you would have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, that takes religion".

Stephen Weinberg.

Is that because religion and politics aren't separate entities do you think Caffe?

I'm just thinking of all the shit we've had in the past with the state and the church pulling different ways but bound together in the monarchy.

Wherever there's power there's always someone fighting for it.

I agree people who want to lash out can do so and are drawn to this guise....throw on Islam fundamentalism and go and be barbaric...lash out at the world.

I just wonder what people get out of it though like in ISIS land...all the restrictions they place on themselves the constant brutality and killing....after a while surely they must all be miserable?

Last post was about the 'Go live in Pakistan for a month, see the barbarity and intolerance there, listen to the fanatical ranting...then come back and tell us that none of this is caused by religion at all.' bit.

Good question, ZigZag - and yes, probably (IMO).

Like cults and things, what on earth do these radical preachers say ?

how do they do it?

The westerners going to Syria all strike me as misfits. Boys who were bullied at school. Boys who didn't fit in. Boys who weren't smart. Boys who have no prospects. Angry adolescents.

Then radicals welcome them, tell them they are "chosen". Like a cult mentality. Or people in the Us who shoot up schools. They are losers looking for somewhere to belong and feel powerful. They are puppets in a bigger game.

The guy in sydney was a misfit. No one took him seriously, for years. He wanted to be respected and listened to, and fear is something he could wield for attention.

This mindset hides behind religion, but it's the same mindset as those in gangs IMO. A brotherhood. Fighting a common enemy. Power and belonging.

These kind of atrocities terrify people. Normal people. Regardless of religion.
These kind of atrocities create anger amongst the masses. Anger on a large scale promotes a more positive response to vengeance.
Vengeance will usually be micromanaged by large regimes who may have certain agendas.

I fear for the future, and the justification of it.