To wonder if many terrorists are not religious fanatics at all? Just nihilistic and violent

[fromparistoberlin73]

I have been reading the profiles of the Paris murders . These people don't strike me as being devout and religious folk. They all have a track record of crime , alienation and violence. I suspect the same of many others . Did they even give a shit about the cartoons? Or did they just relish a chance , a cause that allowed them to vent whatever festering violence they had?

This had been nagging at me for some time . To address the issue we need to understand the drivers , and it's hugely complex .

Rather than slating Islamic fundamentalism (and I am not massive fan) would we be better served looking at prisons and what goes on there as that seems to be the root cause in many cases ??

• ghostland Sun 11-Jan-15 12:58:59

Interesting point. I think the only answer can come from within the religion itself.

If an off shoot of catholisim was acting in this way - right now ( not harking back to history I know all religions capacity for this and that)...right now....I would like to think there would be huge outcry and clamor to call on the POPE to dis accossicate the religion from the fanatics and with such open to interpretation text, get the top, most respected scholars onto the text to challenge it all and explain very clearly why it was in no way a representation of the religion...

To make it crystal clear and cut them off....to make it very hard for them to call these atrocities in the name of Catholicism very hard and incredulous to do...

I have no doubt behind scenes, and have seen in papers - work going on behind scenes. but its kicking off all over the world, all these different factions....killing more muslims than anyone else, the muslim world need to come together and formulate clear and simple diss association.

i think the same. i see parallels with NI in the 70s and 80s, those getting involved with terrorism on both sides were predominantly young and male. there was a label of religion put on it, but it had zero to do with God.

A Clockwork Orange has very interesting things to say about young men and violence.

You can't segregate anyone in prison purely for their religious or political beliefs.

Absolutely others (prison and MH staff) could give their points of view in 1:1 or group sessions but at the end of the day, we weren't there all the time and had professional boundaries - we'd never be their friends or supporters either in or when they left prison.

I wasn't claiming to have the answers to religious violence or terrorism; nor do I have a wide knowledge of Islamic or political rhetoric.

I was relating my personal experience of the fact that there are community and religious leaders doing what they can and certainly not preaching extremism, hatred or violence.

• brokenhearted55a Sun 11-Jan-15 13:15:05

yes yes and concentration camps were started in south africa.

I used catholics as a name only in example of a religion with leader. I could have said any other religion.

We have learned lots since the big war havent we.

do you really think the catholic world would stand by right now, if the same was happening? I dont think so.

There is no central leader for Islam anyway

But there must be scholars, leaders who out more widely respected than others..

If Catholics right now were taking people hostage and crying out whilst shooting people - in the name of Jesus, I have no doubt there would be world wide outrage and demands on Pope to speak, had he not already.
I also think there would be mass rallies by Catholics against the extreme ones.

You can bet that if Catholics were constantly killing and threatening people specifically because someone had offended the Pope or done something to offend the Catholic religion then everyone would be blaming Catholicism and getting the Pope to speak out. They would not be saying "these people are petty criminals and it has nothing to do with religion". Only Islam seems to have this get out clause.

Well yes, and marching!

and causing a storm about it all.

I said the Vatican watched the Holocaust with indifference.

Evidence for that?

Perhaps it's time that 'true Muslims' stood up and reclaimed their religion?

Only they can't because Islam does teach intolerance, violence and jihad

It's a medieval belief system operating in modern times, no wonder there's trouble. People like politicians and church leaders simply can't get their heads around this mindset. They're hopelessly naive. The truth is far worse than they care to imagine.

SnapeChat. They do. That is the whole point of freedom of expression. They have the right to stand outside funerals and in return counter protesters have the right to hold up placards that denounce them. People have the right to say Westboro Baptists Church are a bunch of fucking cunts. That is what is great about freedom of speech, it means you can take apart ideas that you don't like with logic and analysis without resorting to violence or oppression.

I'm a nurse. There are lots of incidences in the UK of nurses being neglectful, not caring, being uninterested, feckless and in some cases downright abusive.

I've never been that in my entire career. In 17 years I've never had an official complaint and have many thank you cards, small gifts and less tangible appreciation etc from people who felt I helped them and in a few cases felt I changed or even saved their lives.

Nurses have a code of conduct and rules to practice by. I am a bloody good Nurse and practice within these guidelines and go above and beyond my contract when it means I'm helping someone that needs it.

Should I apologise for all the Nurses who didn't care, who were dismissive or uninterested or on some cases; neglectful and cruel?.

Should I? Am I responsible for anyone with an NMC pin? Am I the representative for all Nurses?. Should I apologise for Staffordshire or Winterbourne?

If I am then I accept all Muslims bear the burden of responsibility and apology for the actions of all Muslims.

"Perhaps it's time that 'true Muslims' stood up and reclaimed their religion?"

The King of Jordan joined the march in Paris today.

As a descendant if the Prophet, that's symbolism that will not be lost to the Muslim community, particularly in the Middle East.

The following, from the Koran:

Slay the unbelievers wherever you find them(2:191)

Make war on the infidels living in your neighboorhood (9:123)

When opportunity arises, kill the infidels wherever you catch them (9:5)

Kill the jewish people and the Christians if they do not convert to Islam or
refuse to pay Jizya tax (9:29)

Any religion other than Islam is not acceptable (3:85)

The jewish people and the Christians are perverts; fight them (9:30)

Maim and crucify the infidels if they criticise Islam. (5:33)

The infidels are unclean; do not let them into a mosque (9:28)

Punish the unbelievers with garments of fire, hooked iron rods, boiling water; melt their skin and bellies
(22:19)

Do not hanker for peace with the infidels; behead them when you catch them (47:4)

The unbelievers are stupid; urge the Muslims to fight them (8:65)

Muslims must not take the infidels as friends (3:28)

Terrorise and behead those who believe in scriptures other than the Qur’an (8:12)

Muslims must muster all weapons to terrorise the infidels (8:60)

I too am a nurse always and if the NMC Code of Conduct expected me to harm and neglect the people under my care, I would want nothing to do with it.

Perhaps Muslims need to reject Islam. Individuals may not be the problem, but their belief system is.

What with Islam being that awful, it's amazing more Muslims aren't killing people. Hope my Muslim colleagues aren't planning to butcher me on Monday morning!
Also can't believe we let Muslims work in the NHS as doctors and nurses. What a good opportunity they have to kill their infidel patients.

Don't be so silly Slaggy

From the Bible...

Sexist, horrible and homophobic.

Just taking what you said to it's logical conclusion Hidden

Tried to find some from the Talmud for balance but there are a LOT of nutters out there trying to make Jewish people look bad so I'll pass on that.

And two wrongs don't make a right MrsTerry

All this does is close down discourse.

As. Per. Usual.

circular arguments.