To wonder if many terrorists are not religious fanatics at all? Just nihilistic and violent

[fromparistoberlin73]

I have been reading the profiles of the Paris murders . These people don't strike me as being devout and religious folk. They all have a track record of crime , alienation and violence. I suspect the same of many others . Did they even give a shit about the cartoons? Or did they just relish a chance , a cause that allowed them to vent whatever festering violence they had?

This had been nagging at me for some time . To address the issue we need to understand the drivers , and it's hugely complex .

Rather than slating Islamic fundamentalism (and I am not massive fan) would we be better served looking at prisons and what goes on there as that seems to be the root cause in many cases ??

This article is very interesting

I sadly know religious fundamentalism is occurring in Pakistan and in any other places . And I know they are cruel and that amongst myriad other injustices they mandate that rape victims be stoned , just one example. I know and I hate it .

I refer however to incidents of 'homegrown' terrorism . In my opinion very different and need to be handled very differently .

Many of these kids are second generation westerners who have an idealized image of the Arab world their parents fled from. They think they will belong there, but in reality they are pampered westerners with no idea of life in conflict and poverty. They are too soft to fight for years.

Which is why I think a big part of this movement will collapse.

www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/oct/03/schoolgirls-jihad-society-problem-france-burqa-ban

This is the one . Agree with previous poster

I don't understand how someone can strap a bomb to a 10yo girl, wave her off, then press a button a blow up her and everyone around her. How can someone who perpetrates such horror claim to be morally justified, or religiously motivated? Surely they are completely insane?

• Boys who weren't smart. Boys who have no prospects. Angry adolescents

Ummm not sure I was always told quite clever people for some reason got involved in cults and also lots of people in syria are from MC families, well educated and NHS doc and surgeons, people with futures and prospects..

'They are losers looking for somewhere to belong and feel powerful.'

YY, from powerlessness to powerful is a pretty potent offer that must be hard to resist.

Most people want to be heard, to be remembered after they die, to achieve immortality, it's just a shitter that some choose to satisfy that need with infamy. (even though it's a case of 'I'm sane and everyone else is insane')

Elf is right: terrorists are predominantly middle-class and relatively well educated. Not the poorest of the poor.

How can someone who perpetrates such horror claim to be morally justified, or religiously motivated? Surely they are completely insane?

This is why I feel so utterly hopeless about the whole situation, they don't think its the end..that the girl will be a hero...in the afterlife.

They will die as Maryts....sp

Religion normalises and excuses outdated and oppressive practices.

It gives people an excuse not to try and change things.

It allows parents to hand over the moral education of their children to 'the church, mosque etc.'

It allows people a safe place for that ancient human fear of anyone or anything 'other'

In The Simsons Tapped out game the fundamentalist's DS has the chilling catchphrase

"You can think for me!"

If we let others think for us, clever , but very evil people take advantage.

saying she was “heading for a country where they do not prevent you from following your religion”.

From article. interesting but there is much debate on whether full covering is indeed anything at all to do with islam and as far as i am aware -its nothing to do with islam..more tradition...

'"You can think for me!"'

Lots of people prefer others to do their thinking for them, (even if they'd never admit it) their DPs or parents, or even being institutionalised in prison, in an unpredictable world it can maybe give them a measure of security.

Nobody knows what the consequences will be of the decisions they make every day, what could be easier than to deliver the decisions up into someone who looks/sounds/been proved in the past to know what they're talking about?

Elf is right: terrorists are predominantly middle-class and relatively well educated.

Doesn't it depend on the cause/side? I remember (very mists of time remember) research about the IRA and the UDF/UFF etc. IRA terrorists that they looked at tended to be less disturbed, less 'loner crazy', more likely to get involved in education in prison, less likely to get involved in extreme religion in prison. IRA seemed to be altogether more 'normal' psychologically. I would imagine it's the same for the ANC (old ones) versus the white supremacists.

I wonder about all the ISIS/IS people. I would guess that the ones that grew up in Pakistan with the drones and American aggression would be more 'normal' than the ones coming from prison populations in the UK and France.

I know there is no 'just war' but believing that you are fighting evil/colonialism/oppression would make you more likely to fit a paradigm or freedom fighter rather than opportunistic offender, surely.

I don't think they believe the girl died a hero, it seems she died in ignorance. She was a disposable object. A tool.
In their eyes, our tolerance and liberalism simply makes us weak, vulnerable and less - somehow subhuman.

Elf there re other interesting articles linked to in the comments below

I just want to understand why. When we know the WHY we can address it (at least on our soil) a lot better

I don't want to hate Islam either , or say that the whole entire religion is nihilistic and violent . For every ' bearded iman' mandating genital mutiliation there is the nice boy that served you in phones for u, the quiet family down the road, that person with a northern accent you spoke to about your gas bill. Etc etc

Isis are not religious and true to Islam. They interpret the religion to suit them and it's not even correct. They and other terrorists are thugs and murdererous who use religion as an excuse to obtain control and self gain. Quite simply explained to me by a devout British Muslim very recently

yes but she died - for their cause - the cause is worth all....

lots of them seem happy to die for cause...the girl is doing a wonderful thing by giving life up...

( not sure what incident your refering too, probably recent - I am recalling one a long while ago where girl with LD was used).

For every ' bearded iman' mandating genital mutiliation there is the nice boy that served you in phones for u well of course....the man who saved the lives of the people in the Jewish shop was muslim, he hid them in the freezer.

I

Is that dressing up (the iron fist of) politics as (the velvet glove of) religion Cookie?

Using the religion to make their political aspirations more palatable/harder to disobey (because you risk having God on your case if you disagree).

A bombing in Nigeria today which has killed 19 people.
Just horrific.

Although that doesn't give any explanations of why people in this country are drawn into it.

Well, if you look at the research, it shows that most people don't join terrorist organizations because of religion.

Usually it started as a way to stop feeling powerless. They saw a friend get hurt, felt like they were second class citizens, felt hard done by. Joining a group, getting power and a way to fight "them" made them feel more in control. People join terrorist organizations for the same reason they join hate groups such as the KKK.

Really, if you want to combat terrorism, target the youth and make them feel welcome and involved. Don't alienate them or "other" them.

Religion is a scapegoat for people to use as a smokescreen to justify their own immorality. If it wasn't religion it'd be politics like the Tutsis and Hutus in the Rwandan Genocide. Nazis were not religious in nature and neither were the Soviets. Religion has nothing to do with it.

The thing they all have in common is that they found a way to "other" their enemy so they could kill them without guilt to gain power.

Nail.on the head op. These people are usually neither devout in any long term sense, nor are they very well educated in Islam.

My eyes are bleeding

Was talking to my uncle last night whose children go to a Paris school. His son has many friends inc Muslim ones. He's been told by several that it was "bien fait pour eux"- approving the shootings. A friend of my uncle was also talking to a class of lycée students in a predominantly Muslim area who all supported the attacks.
It's not like Paris is united against this terrorist attack that came out of nowhere- I think the city may be polarised, it's just those saying Je suis Charlie are more vocal and heard.

I do wonder what on earth these people have to do differently before you lot will accept that their motivations are largely religious.

Telling us that expressly every opportunity they get seems to fall on deaf ears....because you all know better.

It's absolute crap to say that they have misinterpreted the teachings of Islam - seriously, fundamentally, 100% crap. Anyone who thinks that (including Muslims) have not read their holy book.

ISIS and Al Queda have. And believe it. THAT is the problem.

velour That does not surprise me one little bit. Stories are beginning to emerge of how much support this attack has had across the Muslim world. Pretty much blows out of the water the popular myth that these nutjobs are representing themselves and no one else.