To wonder if many terrorists are not religious fanatics at all? Just nihilistic and violent

[fromparistoberlin73]

I have been reading the profiles of the Paris murders . These people don't strike me as being devout and religious folk. They all have a track record of crime , alienation and violence. I suspect the same of many others . Did they even give a shit about the cartoons? Or did they just relish a chance , a cause that allowed them to vent whatever festering violence they had?

This had been nagging at me for some time . To address the issue we need to understand the drivers , and it's hugely complex .

Rather than slating Islamic fundamentalism (and I am not massive fan) would we be better served looking at prisons and what goes on there as that seems to be the root cause in many cases ??

France has a very very different attitude to Muslims that the uk. Put simple they are openly hostile and racist . I lived there , even 17 years ago I was shocked and taken aback at the open racism and hostility. And I can imagine it's got worst not better . The UK is cloud bloody tolerant cuckoo land compared to France .

NOT condoning their murderous actions . However not in the least bit surprised it happened

ISIS and Al Queda have. And believe it. THAT is the problem
but what is it about the book and or the teaching that is making young people sucked in...

what are the preachers saying> what is going on behind closed doors.

do muslims, smoke hash> they dont drin alchol but do they do any other drugs>?

i just find it hard that young people who usually want to go out and party,....are attracted to such hard line and well, boring and miserable ideology.

if we know what preachers are saying surely people can argue against it.

also we have to tackle schools too and try and sow seeds against this radicalization in schools esp those with heavy Muslim attendance.

Elf . Good question . I think some of it is that their are not from families or societal groups that condone the western ideal of going out and partying . So you have a media that promotes one thing and a family that condones it. Add into the mix racism and the alleged 'western attack' of Muslim counties and it's a bedding ground for alienation an disenfranchisement .

Put another way the more hostility western society demonstrates against Islam the worst it gets.

And of course there is much to be hostile against. FGM , homophobia, sexism etc.

But how this is communicated and reported is critical IMVHO

Occams razor says the simplest answer is normally the right one. The terrorist themselves stated clearly why they did it. I feel like when it comes to Islamism some people try to blame anyone but actual culprits. Islam is a violent religion, it's holy books are hardly doctrines to peace and kindness. It's prophet was violent and Islam was spread via violence. Why is it so hard to believe that some religious people emulate him and do exactly what the koran and hadiths tell them to do?

But ghost that could be said if many religions ! So for me it's not the answer

Look at the Spanish Inquisition , as a pretty gory example

To simple say "oh all Islam is violent' for me is far too simplistic and won't serve us in the long run.

There is little to nothing we can do about atrocities perpetrated in the Middle East unfortunately . When the west intervene it seems to get worse not better !

But I think there are definitely things we can do about the spread of radicalism in Western Europe

Salmon Rushdie has talked a few times about what he calls the "deadly mutation in the heart of Islam'".
He says Saudi Arabia and Iran have pumped billions of dollars over decades into funding extreme preachers and madrassas around the world. So that exponentially increased the very hard line tupe of Islam.

He also said years ago to said "terrorism is glamorous."

oops he said to der Spiegel "terrorism is glamorous."

Yes it could be said about other religions (in the past). The difference is that most other religions have gone through an enlightenment period and no longer take their holy books literally.

I actually think the opposite - that Islam often draws violent and aggressive people towards it and gives people with an inherent violent nature an excuse. A lot of converts are more extreme that people have been born into the faith. It gives them an excuse to be violent, misogynistic etc because it is part of their religion and in the West there is certain respect for religion and religious people.

A neo-Nazi who says "I hate Jews" and kills them gets short shrift and is seen as a bigot/fascist by the left. If that same neo-Nazi converts to Islam and says "I hate Jews because of Palestine" or "I hate Christians because of the Crusades" suddenly everyone "understands" him and he is no longer a fascist bigot but an oppressed victim of disenfranchisement, colonialism and capitalism .

I worked in prison MH for a while and we had to monitor those young men considered to be at risk of radicalisation.

They were usually disaffected kids who were often 'outsiders' and were not 'practising' Muslims in any real sense before coming to prison. History of substance misuse and offending usually.

The 'devout' Muslims that were targeting them gave them an explanation of sorts of how they'd ended up in their current position ie: you were not true followers of Islam and if you were; you would be happy, successful and earn respect.

They also offer an attractive 'excuse' as to why you've ended up here - the society you live in hates Islam so you had a poorer education, reduced access to opportunities, experienced racism and the criminal justice system persecutes you.

They were generally young, not well educated, angry and scared - prison is hard to do on your own; you're generally physically safer and more able to manage it emotionally if you belong to something and have support of other people in your position.

None of the young men at risk of radicalisation I met were psychopaths.

It's difficult to understand how young people can commit such atrocities - yesterday Boko haram strapped explosives onto a 10 year old girl and blew her up in a market.

I suppose there are people who are press ganged into these groups and others who join up who are seduced by the power of a religious ideology which imbues them with the highest possible status, a feeling of fraternity, a channel for anger at situations such as Gaza and Syria.

I think 'we' (meaning those who are the products of modern western liberal democracies) have to be careful to remember that we are looking at religion/Islam through a lens of Western Enlightenment Secularism and just because 'we' cannot imagine how powerful an evangelising force religion can be does not change the fact that it is and has been for millennia.

A violent cause can draw in a huge variety of different young people, especially men. Violence is very attractive to some - think of the popularity of violent online games and movies, even of football gangs and punchups.
Some men just enjoy a higher level of real-life violence

There are far higher numbers recruited in Islamic countries, where they are immersed in a culture that reinforces their values. So, it is not always an opressed minority rebelling.

I wonder if alot of it is how ancient religions view bringing social change.

In a civilised democracy, you petition, protest and lobby in an attempt to change legislation if there is something you don't like. You don't just lop off peoples heads like butchers if they disagree with you.

In the old barbaric days where these violent religions are rooted, you did just murder/stone those who opposed you.

It is about antiquated religions which use violence as social change appealing to those who are already violent.

Look at the Spanish Inquisition , as a pretty gory example

Yes but the Spanish inquisition was of its time....gory...it didn't stand out as a gory thing....medieval times are notoriously violent and gory!

Since then, the Enlightened Nations, have developed out of such gore and violence to a greater degree...

There are far higher numbers recruited in Islamic countries, where they are immersed in a culture that reinforces their values. So, it is not always an opressed minority rebelling.

Interesting.

I think they need to address all this in schools even religious ones, sorry most importantly in religious ones, question everything....do philosophy....open up the childrens minds...have speakers in, including atheists....

schools have dc every day for hours....a preacher in a mosque has them for how long?

• AnyHemisphere Sun 11-Jan-15 11:20:10

yes of course...very very true.

is it evangelising though?

I think many non religious attacks and atrocities should be considered terrorism but aren't because it doesn't fit the current rhetoric by mainstream media and government of terrorism = violent religious/Muslim people attacking others.

I think religion is just one part of the socialization used that trains people to believe that their worldview/philosophy/feelings are so important that they deserve to hurt others who disagree or validate them or push against them. For a non religious example, we've had multiple violent attacks by men on women for no religious reason but because they wouldn't date them or because they were in a degree course/job they wanted or something else that broke their rules and reading their stuff it is obvious that they were socialized to believe a particularly philosophy that include the supreme importance of their feelings and the right to enforce and punish others to those who are breaking this worldview and their right to others doing things to satisfy their feelings.

I think if we bring terrorism as the concept of a violent act on the public designed to cause terror and punish people for doing or not doing X, then there are far more nonreligious ones and there is a reason that mainstream media and governments have such a narrow perspective on terrorism is because they don't want to get into the discussion of how their actions and the wider system supports the socialization of those in power groups into worldviews and philosophies that dehumanize and in some cases outright encourages violent terrorist acts (pretty much every mainstream news agency does the exact opposite of what it should do during these events when there has been a great grasp of how damaging their reporting is and how it encourages repeat actions for decades now). From the local to the macro stage, the current systems are set up to encourage these types of violent philosophies out there, but only condemns and calls terrorism a handful.

As an aside to my earlier post - we had two Imams who would work with us to try and prevent/challenge radicalisation leading to violence and intolerance.

They were brilliant men doing all they could. I think it's untrue to say Muslim leaders do not speak out against violence in my personal experience - they might not be on TV saying it but it is happening.

One of them always quoted a passage from the Qu'ran which (my apologies for incorrect translation etc) which basically said 'for him who takes a life, it is as if he has killed all mankind and he who saves a life; it is as if he has saved all mankind'.

Very intelligent, gentle, understanding men who I have the utmost respect and affection for. I hate to think that they will increasingly be targets for hatred, suspicion and abuse due to recent events (they already were so it must be worse now).

So presumably all those fundamentalist "Christians" who kill abortion doctors are not really Christians but misguided and disenfranchised criminals? Likewise the Westboro Baptist Church do not represent Christianity in any way, they are just a bunch of disenfranchised, oppressed rednecks? Perhaps we should look into their motives and see how we can help them and understand their pain?

• alwaysstaytoolong Sun 11-Jan-15 10:45:48

But why were man at risk of being R even allowed to come near others who may R them . Shouldn't the latter be in solitary?

If there is a void and the reasons you state exist, can others come into chat about how they actually ended up where they were....rather than being left to preachers?

Next time I get a parking ticket I am going to say I parked on the yellow line because of Gaza. Hopefully they'll be understanding and let me off.

One of them always quoted a passage from the Qu'ran which (my apologies for incorrect translation etc) which basically said 'for him who takes a life, it is as if he has killed all mankind and he who saves a life; it is as if he has saved all mankind'

Very sweet but how would he reconcile that to the implication all those who do not follow Islam are infidels and so on?

ie, is it a mankind they think is worth saving if they are saving infidles

The terrible atrocities during the Rwanda genocide, when the Tutsis were massacred en masse by the Hutus, wasn't in the least motivated by religion.
It was a political situation, fuelled by jealousy and resentment. The Hutu terrorists inflicted the most unbelievable fear and committed despicable crimes, against children and women as well as Tutsi menfolk.

Many terrorists have had stable or even privileged upbringings. Not all have been in prison. I feel that the reasons for 'radicalisation' are complex. And one should be looking too at the preachers of hate who incite the younger men to join and fight for the terrorist organisations. Like Adolf Hitler, they have great skills in inspiring and motivating impressionable people to commit acts of wickedness.

The young have always been ardent, idealistic and volatile. In Paris decades ago, it was expected that students would be demonstrating and rioting in defence of some perceived injustice. The Tiananmen Square tragedy was initiated by brave, young student dissidents. So it seems easy to get young men to join a cause if you know how to stir them up.

Please don't assume that all religious people are toxic or dangerous. There are literally millions of peaceful, good folk of all religions who are entirely well-disposed and benevolent towards their fellow men.