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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To say that in the light of what has happened in Paris we mustn't give the extremists what they want..?

419 replies

AWholeLottaNosy · 09/01/2015 19:58

I'd like to reproduce an article in The New Statesman which is basically saying that the aims of these attacks is to increase anti Muslim prejudice, increasing attacks on these communities ( as we've already seen in France) and thereby increasing the sense of alienation and hostility towards the West and recruiting more terrorists...?

www.newstatesman.com/politics/2015/01/charlie-hebdo-attack-really-struggle-over-european-values

OP posts:
maddening · 10/01/2015 22:24

I think Yanbu - they want fear and tension and how better to create the kind of culture that drives vulnerable young people to the hands of fanatics.

I think the Muslim leaders and communities need to rise up vocally against this action and the fanatical groups globally and at home - give a show of solidarity in order to unite the country rather than divide - it is not the Muslim community's responsibility but with tensions rising it could go a long way as well as showing the disenchanted groups that might be wooed by the fanatic groups and their messages that their own Muslim community strongly rejects these messages and interpretations of Islam as unmuslim

Esmum07 · 10/01/2015 22:51

Of course the terrorists want to create fear and "retribution" because that's how they increase their ranks. It was the same with the IRA and any other organisation. If you point fingers at other religions, races, genders or whatever and say they are all the same you naturally make people edgy and encourage idiots to take "revenge" which then makes the original set of people close ranks - and that is dangerous.

As for the man doing his prayers on the train? Pure provocation on his part. Because there is not a set time for prayer. There is a set PERIOD of time for prayer. Muslims have five prayers per day and,as long as they do their prayer between the start of one prayer period and the start of the other they are fine. So, for example, one prayer period begins just after noon. The next one occurs mid afternoon (say school pick up time). You can pray at 12.05pm or you can pray at 2.30pm. You'd still be within the limit of that prayer period because ethe mid afternoon one hasn't started yet.

Cos otherwise what would have happened if that passenger were actually driving the train? Or if a surgeon were in an operation that over ran? Ever heard of a teacher walking out of a class to do his or her prayers,or a mid wife leaving a mum about to give birth so he or she could pray? Ever wondered why not? Because there is not a set time to pray.

So the man on the train was, in my view, being provocative after Paris. Because you are not tellijng me that on a train full of passengers, there was not one other Muslim...and no one else was praying...because they could wait until they got home. Plus, of course,this man should have washed hands, face and feet before praying and he'd be hard pushed to find a toilet working on most of the short journey trains I have been on (which is what this train looked like). Still doesn't mean he deserves to have his head kicked in. Do that and you put yourself on the terrorist/provocateur/ignoramuses level.

PhaedraIsMyName · 10/01/2015 22:54

Satirists should be reasonable and not push the boundaries of taste and decency

And who determines those boundaries? .

It's likely to be fairly toothless if you apply that.

uk.sputniknews.com/uk/20150110/1013358264.html

m.forward.com/articles/212292/why-charlie-hebdo-must-be-free-to-offend-all-ev/

bakingnovice · 10/01/2015 22:58

Provocative? Really?? Wow.

That's rubbish. And ridiculous.

Wtf is going on with mn this week?

Really lovely story to read about the Muslim guy who protected the Jews in the supermarket and that they are asking for him to be recognised. Brought a treat to my eye. These bastard terrorists can do their best to degrade and dehumanise us but there is too much goodness in the world. There are not good and bad muslims, just good and bad people.

BigChocFrenzy · 10/01/2015 23:45

MN reaction to the double atrocity has been pretty civilised, with a lot of good debate. I would hope the rest of the UK - and France too - can remain this restrained.

MistressMia · 10/01/2015 23:46

Really lovely story to read about the Muslim guy who protected the Jews in the supermarket and that they are asking for him to be recognised. Brought a treat to my eye

What patronising drivel.

Why wouldn't a muslim person instinctively spring to help someone in need ?

It would be the guttural instinct of all decent people.

What's his religion got to do with it ?

Your subtext appears to be 'see muslims are not Jew hating barbarians'.... as if you are the only one who knows this.

Yes, lets lionise him as a 'muslim', not just as a selfless and brave person who acted fast to protect people.

I doubt when he was shepherding people he was thinking 'I'm muslim they are Jewish'.

....Talk about debasing and appropriating his actions.

cleanmachine · 11/01/2015 00:00

Yes baking that story was lovely. Is like a big hand in the face of the extremists who want to cause divisions.

Mistress - why the frothing?

fanjoforthemammaries7850 · 11/01/2015 00:15

Saying praying is provocative is ridiculous.

The picture with someone peacefully praying having the caption "feeling scared" is beyond ridiculous.

It's am unarmed man praying out of the way on the train.

Feeling scared of it is self indulgent xenophobia to the max.

bakingnovice · 11/01/2015 00:32

Mistress this story made headlines today in all the papers. Are you saying everyone is debasing his actions? Or is that just you

fanjoforthemammaries7850 · 11/01/2015 00:34

The story was very positive and extremely important IMO

BigChocFrenzy · 11/01/2015 00:38

We have to both praise the heroes and deal with the psychos.

BigChocFrenzy · 11/01/2015 00:45

I find anyone odd who publicly talks to a Sky Fairy or leprechaun, but I don't feel threatened. I only get irritated if they expect me to do what their Sky Fairy replies. Same for any religion.

PhaedraIsMyName · 11/01/2015 00:46

I agree we have to praise the heroes and vilify the perpetrators, whatever their motives. I'm inclined to agree these 4 may not necessarily be driven by religion.

We should also remember Raif Bedawi whose torture is however unfortunately entirely due to one interpretation of religion.

m.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-30744693

MistressMia · 11/01/2015 01:05

Saying praying is provocative is ridiculous

And how do you know this for definite ?

The truth is that he could be being deliberately provocative or he could just be extremely devout.

There are some muslims with extremist political agendas who do in fact set out to be provocative in order to either stick two fingers up at the society they despise or to provoke a reaction that they can then further escalate.

The devout ones are far far less likely to pray in public on a dirty train. As a PP has explained prayer times are in blocks of a few hours. If you miss these blocks, then you can make up the prayers later in the day. Generally that's what people have done and do.

Even if you were going to pray in such a public place you would do it discretely sitting down or standing up, as there are exceptions that can be made when it wouldn't be practical or desirable to lay out a full prayer mat, or if you don't have the ability to prostrate for health / mobility reasons. My mother frequently does this, but anybody would be had pressed to really notice.

Both my parents and my brother pray 5 times a day every day. Never once have they, or I when I was practicing, ever done so laying out the full works on a filthy train floor or any other public area. I don't know anyone from my wider network who ever has either.

Unpalatable as it is, there is a subset of muslims, the ones commonly referred to as Islamists, who are deliberately provocative and who do say and do things purely as part of their agenda. This particularly act of praying may well have been such a gesture.

fanjoforthemammaries7850 · 11/01/2015 01:22

Praying is not a provocative act. To view it as such you have to be harbouring some prejudice.

fanjoforthemammaries7850 · 11/01/2015 01:23

Sorry but you won't change my mind. To say that someone is praying to be provocative is ridiculous to me.

PhaedraIsMyName · 11/01/2015 01:36

It's not provocative.

If I'd been on the train I'd have thought it an ostentatious display of religiosity ; much the same as I thought of the Russian Orthodox prostrated at Zagorsk as it was then known or Christian worshippers crawling up the steps of the Scala Sancta in Rome.

I can't see the point ; it means nothing to me and , as long as no-one is telling me I must do it too, I don't care.

MistressMia · 11/01/2015 02:10

Praying is not a provocative act. To view it as such you have to be harbouring some prejudice

..or privy to the fascist views of aforementioned Islamists.

And nowhere have I said all praying is a provocative act.

AWholeLottaNosy · 11/01/2015 02:15

Oh God the debate is still raging...

I wanted to add the words of some Muslims interviewed by the Guardian in London today. Seems they are having (of course) their own
Debate about what has happened...

"Shares
111
Outside the East London mosque, many sought the same answer. “Why are you here?” said Bilal, 32, from nearby Poplar. “Why are you asking what we think of Paris? It’s 250 miles away in another country. What happens there has nothing to do with us,” his friend added.

As thousands filtered on to Whitechapel’s Fieldgate Street following Friday prayers at the mosque, many said they could see no point in commenting on individuals they had never met and who, they said, cited a religion they could not recognise.

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“Are you asking me to speak about something that I don’t understand? Are you asking me to apologise as a Muslim on their behalf? We don’t ask the Irish to apologise for the IRA,” said Maaz, 22, who lives locally and did not want to give his full name.

The debate over the wholesale blaming of Muslims for the events in Paris was given an acrimonious twist on Saturday after News Corp boss Rupert Murdoch tweeted that even peaceful Muslims ought to bear the burden of the deadly Charlie Hebdo death toll “until they destroy growing jihadist cancer”.

His comments provoked opprobrium across social media, with political commentator Mohammed Ansar describing it “deeply irresponsible” and an incitement to the angry.

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Back on Whitechapel Road, auditor Mohammed Lambat, 29, from near Manchester, pleaded for Britons to avoid allowing the Paris killings to cloud their view of Muslims. “This could change the views of the majority of non-Muslims but I hope not. Minorities always get hurt but the majority never does.”

His friend Zohaid Quereshi, 25, also an auditor, said he had detected no sympathy from anyone he knew for the Paris gunmen and said that their murderous actions had nothing to do with Islam.

Outside the nearby London Muslim Centre, a group of young men who described themselves as progressive implored the UK media to refrain from using representations of the prophet Muhammad, arguing that the pain it provoked could spark animosity.

Ahmed, 25, who works in the sandwich chain Subway, said: “It’s very painful, far worse than insulting my father, my family. It causes us great hurt, but people do not seem to understand this.”

His friend, Abdul, 26, who works in Argos, added: “It’s very hurtful: they are abusing the freedom of speech by doing this. We are passive, but some people are more emotional, they will react differently.”

The friends, born in the London borough of Tower Hamlets, said that defiling the prophet should be considered a criminal offence because it was effectively incitement to hatred.

Earlier, the group visiting East London mosque, one of Europe’s biggest, accommodating more than 7,000 worshippers for congregational prayers, said the imam’s message had been to urge the community to display restraint and not react to the Charlie Hebdo drawings of the prophet.

“He urged patience. He said the prophet never took revenge and told us not to react,” said one of the group, Shiraz, 32, and who also works in the same east London branch of Subway as Ahmed.

He added that the act of publishing representations of Muhammad could bolster the belief among some Muslims that they were being persecuted.

Fiyaz Mughal, director of the multifaith group Faith Matters, called on Muslims to “stand up and join the debate”. He said the killing would lead to an increase in anti-Muslim bigotry and “build, in the minds of some, the thinking that the gulf between Muslims and non-Muslims cannot be overcome”.

He added: “This is dangerous and uncritical kneejerk reactionism that leads nowhere apart from more damaged lives and a cycle of hate that will simply continue. This cycle of hate and counter-hate needs breaking and it also means that we all have to work to ensure that extremists, bigots and those who seek to divide do not succeed in their endeavours.”

Peace and love everyone. Flowers

OP posts:
kawliga · 11/01/2015 02:29

I would not be surprised to see a Muslim doing a good or heroic thing - the fact that heroism exists amongst Muslims is not something to be surprised about, as if you wouldn't have thought such a thing could happen. There are heroes amongst all peoples, no less so amongst Muslims.

I would be surprised to see a Muslim ostentatiously performing prayers on a train, for the reasons given by MistressMia:
Both my parents and my brother pray 5 times a day every day. Never once have they, or I when I was practicing, ever done so laying out the full works on a filthy train floor or any other public area. I don't know anyone from my wider network who ever has either.

kawliga · 11/01/2015 02:42

Why wouldn't a muslim person instinctively spring to help someone in need ? It would be the guttural instinct of all decent people. What's his religion got to do with it ?

This. That guy was a hero. He saved many lives. He did it from his own courage and humanity, not aiming to make a point that Muslims can do some good things too just like other human beings. Using his actions to advance a 'see how nice muslims can be!' argument is patronising and debasing what he did, I agree with MistressMia.

MistressMia · 11/01/2015 02:47

No we shouldn't give the extremists what they want, which in this particular incident was the imposition of blasphemy laws onto non-muslims.

In this spirit, here's hoping the Kabaa returns to its pagan roots soon and the source of this terrorism is eliminated for good.

To say that in the light of what has happened in Paris we mustn't give the extremists what they want..?
MistressMia · 11/01/2015 03:09

Outside the nearby London Muslim Centre, a group of young men who described themselves as progressive implored the UK media to refrain from using representations of the prophet Muhammad, arguing that the pain it provoked could spark animosity

Ahmed, 25, who works in the sandwich chain Subway, said: “It’s very painful, far worse than insulting my father, my family. It causes us great hurt, but people do not seem to understand this.”

His friend, Abdul, 26, who works in Argos, added: “It’s very hurtful: they are abusing the freedom of speech by doing this. We are passive, but some people are more emotional, they will react differently

The friends, born in the London borough of Tower Hamlets, said that defiling the prophet should be considered a criminal offence because it was effectively incitement to hatred

And there you have it..... The veiled threats..... Respect our Prophet and beliefs. Our Blasphemy laws apply to you to.

......Thanks for confirming that actually those terrorists were just one of many who would have us all live according to Sharia.

And this is the moderate muslims talking.

kawliga · 11/01/2015 03:22

To be fair to the 'moderates', Mia, many of them are just afraid, they are running scared, as many people are in the face of terrorism. This is not necessarily veiled threats from them, it could also be 'oh no, please stop drawing cartoons and hopefully the extremists will not hurt us all'. It is like people who tell victims of domestic violence to stop antagonizing the bully - they are just hoping that if everybody is 'nice' to the bully then nobody will get hurt.

FrothingNothing · 11/01/2015 03:28

Of course, everyone should believe mistress. Her lies are believable to the ignorant.