AIBU with this perspective on rape?

[TheOnlyWayThrough]

Rape is vile and awful and always the rapists fault in its entirety. Of course it is, you'd be mad to disagree.

The bit I don't really get is the argument that women shouldn't need to take any responsibly for keeping themselves safe. The idea that women (and sometimes men) wouldn't be vulnerable if rapists didn't rape.

Well of course that is true, but that would be in an ideal world. And this certainly isn't one, so the point is moot surely? That principle could be applied to all walks of life where some people do inexplicably nasty things to others... which is basically ALL THE TIME. Some things are obviously worse than others, and rape is up there with the most obscene. It's not the only awful thing though.

You don't hear people saying that elderly people shouldn't need to have chains on their door for their own protection. And if someone forced their way into the home of someone elderly without a chain, I wouldn't for a second blame them/say they were asking for it. It's just that that a chain might have kept them a bit safer; that's why we have them.

A friend of mine was mugged walking home from work one night recently (it was about midnight). She wasn't hurt, but was of course shaken up and felt horribly violated. She won't be walking home again like that as it clearly isn't as safe as she thought. And I think that's sensible. But I don't feel that makes me a 'mugging apologist'. My friend wasn't at fault for the scummy thing that happened to her, but she DID put herself in a situation which wasn't very safe... and she got stung.

When I was burgled whilst sleeping I wished I'd have put the burglar alarm on as it might have stopped it from happening. I put it on every night now, rather than saying "I shouldn't have to; it's the burglars that shouldn't burgle".

Why is saying that it's a good idea to keep ourselves safe somehow misconstrued as mitigating rape in a way that doesn't seem to with other crimes? It's not intended that way, and it's not judging or blaming anyone who has been raped. It doesn't matter if you were drunk, half-naked, whatever - the crime was the rape and the victim did nothing wrong.

So is it unreasonable to think that in some situations, some ladies have put themselves in situations which weren't at all sensible and made them prey to scummy behaviour? And to think that that isn't the same thing as saying they are to blame or deserving of rape in any way?

(Just to add, this isn't about the Ched Evans case any more than any other particular case. And to anyone who has been a rape victim, I hope nothing I've said offends you, it certainly wasn't meant to. And I hope those who hurt you receive justice)

Exactly canyou

I too have had more conversation on these lines with my sons about the dangers of drinking too much when out and about.

If they are very warm granny-style knickers it might stop you catching a nasty chill, perhaps?

Add message | Report | Message poster HouseWhereNobodyLives Fri 09-Jan-15 11:38:33
Locking up your laptop will stop it getting stolen.

Alarming your house will stop burglars entering undetected.

Keeping an eye on your purse will stop pickpockets.

Nothing will stop you being raped.
Add message | Report | Message poster slug Fri 09-Jan-15 11:38:57

do you think you are more or less likey to be raped of attacked of your seen as being vulnerable and I assume of you really believe what you wrote the you have no issue expecting lifts form men you don't know

I have never heard anything more silly when your out at a club you can literally see men targeting women who are legless not saying they are going to get raced but the judgment is defiantly off more open to getting groped whilest being barly able to stand I seen my own friend go home with some random against our pleas which I know would not have happend if she was not so drunk I myself don't and never have drunk when out for this very reason I am not a saint however after the very scary thing that happend to my friend I never have felt safe and like to have my wits about me

Yeah, that poster is an idiot for saying what she said about keeping knickers on.

I think because so many people are twats and do blame rape victims people who are talking about taking sensible precautions get lumped in with those idiots.

I am not a total idiot. I know we can't prevent rape, I know it is always the rapists fault but giving personal safety advice in the hopes that it might lower their risks of rape in certain situations isn't victim blaming.

Exactly canyou

I too have had more conversation on these lines with my sons about the dangers of drinking too much when out and about.

Me to we talk to my teenage son about drinking and about how it can throw off your judgment leaf to fights ECt also about having his phone ECt on show and how it's not anyone's right. To take his things how ever having your I phone , ECt on display is foolish

Once again, it was the use of the term 'responsibility' that elicited the charges of victim blaming.

Chuckle

Yes, I will be telling my dd to keep her knickers on until she has found the person she wishes to have sex with. They are my values I wish to pass onto my daughter.
I will be teaching her how to take actions to minimise crime happening to her.
I will teach her take responsibility for this.
I'm not suggesting if anything awful happens to somebody and they haven't taken precautions they are somehow to blame, of course they aren't.
But taking steps to minimise is what I intend to teach my daughter.
You can teach yours what you like.

Ok Sqoosh that makes sense.

'I will be telling my dd to keep her knickers on until she has found the person she wishes to have sex with'

Take your knickers off when having sex. Sage words.

I will certainly never talk to my daughters in that language.

Keep your knickers on is vile.

YABU simply because if an OAP get robbed or beaten no one says 'why didn't they have a chain'

when women get raped many people will ask why she was wearing x or walking near y, or drinking z ....

How can suggesting people take responsibility be victim blaming, what a stupid suggestion.
Its not like we come with free body guards or our own Police person to protect us.
I take responsibility for my safety seriously, it may not stop crime but make t less likely

one of the big problems with prevention messages, and the reason it sits so closely to victim blaming, is it does nothing to change societies overall attitude to rape.

So while drinking less/staying home/going out/wearing more/whatever might stop you from being raped, the rapist will still find someone to attack and rape.

All the furor over the Ched Evans ongoing drama shows many many people don't think what he did was rape including CE himself - even though he has been found guilty and been jailed. I've had intelligent friends say to me just this week that they thought it was a matter of "girl crying wolf after the fact" until they did more enlightened reading on the subject this week.

So while I might have gone home after 3 drinks at 11pm in a taxi that night, the "girl sitting next to me" did not. And there is not a person in the country who is not aware at just how publicly vilified this rape victim has been. She was drunk!!! Her experience is unique in the sense of media attention, but as for being blamed for being complicit in her attack and the knock on damage to a "nice guy" her rapist being prosecuted has "suffered", she is not unique at all.

I think once you get it, really get it about rape & responsibility, it can turn life around completely for you. All the people who come on here and say things like "I'm not a feminist but ...." and "I don't mind porn but ......" - well all that starts to change.

When you really get the point about rape/victim blaming on a society wide level you can't help but become more feminist and be more curious about the real affects on us all, men and woman, of the patriarchy, and how porn really does damage us as a society etc etc. It can turn your world upside down.

I'm sure there is someone who can express all this far more eloquently than I have, but after a walk at lunchtime thinking about this I gave it a shot.

Because 'responsibility' suggests that if a person is raped some of the blame of the crime can be apportioned to the victim by dint of their not being careful enough.

Got it?

Good.

Add message | Report | Message poster ghostyslovesheep Fri 09-Jan-15 14:53:36
YABU simply because if an OAP get robbed or beaten no one says 'why didn't they have a chain'

when women get raped many people will ask why she was wearing x or walking near y, or drinking z ....

not true the police and charity's like help the aged have gone to grate lengths to talk to the elderly about crime prevention and things like putting a chain on your door how to prevent con men and also nominating someone to deal with cold callers ect

I wouldn't ask what a victim was doing in x y or z, or comment on their attire.
However, I would be wearing modest clothes and not be in x y or z, sober as a precaution.

Oh yes, because we all know that 'modest clothing' acts as a magic forcefield against rapists.

Personally I don't think it has nothing to do with what your wearing but how vulnerable you appear to be if your drunk with a guy you have just met in a town you don't know you may find your self in. Sticky situ

I get it now Squoosh

Becall that is a great post. Thank you, gives me a lot to think about.

YABU. Rape will happen in your marital bed, on a train at night, in a supermarket toilet, in a busy nightclub ect ect.

When rape happens, the oness of responsibility should be COMPLETELY with the rapist, rape victims shouldn't be left feeling they should have done more to prevent being raped, because it shouldn't have happened in the first place under ANY circumstances. YABU and I think you are quite cruel, you have an opinion, a few have agreed, it doesn't mean your opinion is right.

Fuck off Potatoes.

By that token, morethanpotatoprints why not wear a chastity belt and hang a sign around your neck proclaiming that you're wearing one.

After all, if you're going to take precautions, you may as well take one that works.

The simple way I think about its, just keep it gender neutral and don't make it about rape.

Its very sensible to ask people not to drink so much that they are not in control of what happens to them, to keep hold of drinks to prevent spiking, to stay in a group with friends, to use licensed taxis etc.

They are sensible precautions to take for anyone but unfortunately they would not prevent the vast majority of rapes. I think educating our young males from as early as possible and a complete cultural change are required to tackle this.

Yanbu in some of what you say

I hate to see it but I would tend to worry about a young girl out more than a young boy, purely because I perceive a higher risk of sexual assault for the girl. But maybe I am biased as I am female? Having experienced it.

But I know for many this reads as 'victim blaming ' . I work in an risk averse world . Risks are risks

If a pedestrian was killed by someone who purposely ploughed into them (or even someone who didn't run the over on purpose but was drivin recklessly), no one would say 'well, did they look both ways, did they take the correct precautions near the road'?

Now obviously the fact that no one blames the pedestrian for not looking doesn't make that person any less dead, which is why it is better to take appropriate precautions, but I just never understand why rape is singled out as a crime where a woman is partly responsible because of what she was wearing or how much she had had to drink.

Its not the case that men are walking around with erections that have to be placed in a vagina within a certain time frame and whether or not a woman is consenting, it has to be done or their dick will fall off. A man can choose not to have sex with someone if they don't have their consent, or cannot be sure that they have their consent, despite what dumb fuck radio DJs say about wagging dog's tails or whatever.