AIBU with this perspective on rape?

[TheOnlyWayThrough]

Rape is vile and awful and always the rapists fault in its entirety. Of course it is, you'd be mad to disagree.

The bit I don't really get is the argument that women shouldn't need to take any responsibly for keeping themselves safe. The idea that women (and sometimes men) wouldn't be vulnerable if rapists didn't rape.

Well of course that is true, but that would be in an ideal world. And this certainly isn't one, so the point is moot surely? That principle could be applied to all walks of life where some people do inexplicably nasty things to others... which is basically ALL THE TIME. Some things are obviously worse than others, and rape is up there with the most obscene. It's not the only awful thing though.

You don't hear people saying that elderly people shouldn't need to have chains on their door for their own protection. And if someone forced their way into the home of someone elderly without a chain, I wouldn't for a second blame them/say they were asking for it. It's just that that a chain might have kept them a bit safer; that's why we have them.

A friend of mine was mugged walking home from work one night recently (it was about midnight). She wasn't hurt, but was of course shaken up and felt horribly violated. She won't be walking home again like that as it clearly isn't as safe as she thought. And I think that's sensible. But I don't feel that makes me a 'mugging apologist'. My friend wasn't at fault for the scummy thing that happened to her, but she DID put herself in a situation which wasn't very safe... and she got stung.

When I was burgled whilst sleeping I wished I'd have put the burglar alarm on as it might have stopped it from happening. I put it on every night now, rather than saying "I shouldn't have to; it's the burglars that shouldn't burgle".

Why is saying that it's a good idea to keep ourselves safe somehow misconstrued as mitigating rape in a way that doesn't seem to with other crimes? It's not intended that way, and it's not judging or blaming anyone who has been raped. It doesn't matter if you were drunk, half-naked, whatever - the crime was the rape and the victim did nothing wrong.

So is it unreasonable to think that in some situations, some ladies have put themselves in situations which weren't at all sensible and made them prey to scummy behaviour? And to think that that isn't the same thing as saying they are to blame or deserving of rape in any way?

(Just to add, this isn't about the Ched Evans case any more than any other particular case. And to anyone who has been a rape victim, I hope nothing I've said offends you, it certainly wasn't meant to. And I hope those who hurt you receive justice)

'Not once has she said anyone deserves to be raped for any reason and I think it is unfair that we can't have a discussion about personal safety and rape without being called a victim blamer.'

Well then she should have thought twice before using the word 'responsibility'.

men rape men too.
how do they stop that? tell me that? a man i know who is close to me was raped. how was he meant to stop that, it was someone he knows.
he was also pounced on by a woman and forced to do things he didn't want to do. but thats not rape is it? thats a man that should enjoy it!
you keep yourself safe. but how can you do that if that person lives with you? is in yuour family? you trust them and they do this? man or woman. rape is rape.
However, knowingly going to a mans house to sleep with him, then saying oh no he raped me because you regret it is dispicable. also not keeping yourself safe from getting your phone and purse knicked by some weirdo you've gone home with, knowingly, with consent. thats not rape.
you keep yourself safe - making sure you don't do things that can make you unsafe.
men too. men aren't exempt. men can get raped by other men on the first date, y'know.

Asking people to take responsibility for personal safety is a different way of saying that rape happens because people took a risk with their personal safety. It is victim blaming.

Yeh, because running and screaming etc never got a woman beaten up really badly did it?

And if your laptop is 'stollen' you could always try eating it instead of posting highly offensive, inflammatory bullshit.

More than.
You appear to have just potato prints for brains with your comments. They are not only offensive but ignorant.

I am happy to have the rhetoric about rape switch from the traditional victim blaming "it was her own fault/did you see how she was dressed/she was drunk what was he supposed to think/she was asking for it/why didn't she just keep her legs shut etc" all the disgusting things that have been said about women over the years in courts of law. It is about time.

That said, I certainly won't be telling my daughters or son that they cannot do anything to ensure their personal safety - I would not want any of my children to feel that helpless. yes they might still be attacked/assaulted but that shouldn't stop them making sure they are not black-out drunk, not walking a street in shoes where they can't run if necessary, that they listen to their instincts if they feel someone is off, that they feel ok with being "rude" to people if they don't like the situation, that they don't feel any societal pressure to let people into their lives or homes if they don't want to, that they don't park in dark places if possible etc etc. There are lots of things we can all do to protect ourselves. That doesn't take away the responsibility for the crime from the criminal.

'There are lots of things we can all do to protect ourselves. That doesn't take away the responsibility for the crime from the criminal.'

Precisely this.

Well said canyou. It's not an ideal world and unfortunately you have to adjust to that.

While I know we can't be certain how we'd react in a situation until it happens, I am 99% sure I wouldn't want to run, knee someone in the bollocks, etc.

Why?

Because I am terrified of getting hit. I am more terrified of that than of the idea of rape, which I know isn't very logical.

Women are socialised (by posts like morethan's) to assume that rape must be the ultimate shame, and that they should always be prepared risk angering a violent man who's already shown he's willing to commit a crime.

That is fucking stupid.

I was raped by my boyfriend when I was 19 years old and do you know what I did? I froze. I froze and pretended to myself it wasn't happening and imagined I was somewhere else and waited until it was over so I could leave.

And no, I didn't report it, because I'm aware that so many people would think it wasn't rape because I didn't try "Running and locking a door, screaming, fighting back, spraying something in the face, kneeing them in the bollocks."

dodo

People are raped in broad daylight as was someone close to me. She was sensibly walking to the shops fully covered when 3 men pounced. How do you take responsibility for that? Resort to online shopping and never leave the house? We can't padlock our bodies up and no I don't believe rape can be prevented. It can happen to anyone of any age at any time of the day

Newyears

No one is saying you can stop yourself from being raped. Everyone knows that there is nothing you can do to stop yourself from being raped.

Some believe that teaching their children certain precautions might slightly reduce the risk in certain circumstances. No one believes you can prevent being raped full stop.

I will also teach my boys about not getting drunk and going home with women and men they don't know too. They will get the same advice and we are already talking about consent and how someone drunk can;t actually consent etc.

Mine will all get the same personal safety talks and I hope it will slightly lower their risks of any crime being committed against them, but if a crime does happen they have no responsibility for that crime, that is all on the criminal.

I won't single rape out, the talks will include every crime out there.

It is sickening how so many women are blamed for their rapes, they are asked what they were wearing, how drunk they were etc and that is disgusting. Once a woman is raped no one has a right to put any blame onto them at all, but I simply don't think that teaching precautions which may or may not slightly lower the chances of rape happening in certain situations is victim blaming.

OP: I too agree with you.

If a woman gets very drunk, willingly has sex with a random man, but then wakes up the next morning with no recollection of her actions and thinks she had been too drunk to consent, then by definition, she was raped.

I really think that woman who are so drunk they are lying on the pavement unconscious are really a bit daft, especially the ones who do so regularly.

And if so much of the prevention advice is not victim blaming, then why is it only addressed to women when men are far more likely to be victims of assault than women are likely to be victims of stranger rape?

Here's a campaign that I can't imagine working very well:
"Men! Did you know that 40% of GBH attacks happen to men who have had at least a pint? Stick to soft drinks when you're out."

What Canyou said is what almost all women I know think! Someone reported my posts on another thread for saying a similar thing though.

But Glitz did anyone say rape can be prevented? I thought the OP was simply talking about maybe being able to slightly lower your risks.

That is not the same as thinking you can prevent rape.

And if so much of the prevention advice is not victim blaming, then why is it only addressed to women when men are far more likely to be victims of assault than women are likely to be victims of stranger rape?

Who said it was only addressed to women? I assume, like me, if the OP has sons she too will be giving them the exact same advice.

Lower your risks how? It's disgusting that a female can't feel safe walking alone be it day or night without fear of attack

Glitz it's disgusting but it's reality though isn't it?

That actually sounds like sensible advice to me oneflew, maybe not sticking to soft drinks, but certainly being mindful of the amount drunk!

Add message | Report | Message poster morethanpotatoprints Fri 09-Jan-15 11:33:22

Totally agree with you I have a daughter and I will be doing the same in my younger days I had a friend and she went home with a guy from the club we been at we didn't know him she just got in his rc we begged her not to and the club wasn't even local we were in the sticks

About 7am I got a call asking for reverse charges he tried to have sex with her however she was just to drunk she pucked all over his car and he simply bundled her out on the A road she had been walking for hours had no money lost her bag she was lucky she was not killed buy a passing car on the A road or somone random who picked her up risky behaviour is called so for a reason because being very very drunk or going home with men you don't know carries risk

OneFlew, right now I have more conversations with my son (he is the eldest) than my daughters about the dangers of getting drunk, getting into dodgy situations, walking away from trouble when you see it etc. He is a young man - I think he is quite vulnerable to random violence when he is out especially if there is drink involved so I talk to him about it.

I am not talking about stranger rape or rape when walking down the street.

As that is the rarest form of rape that is not something I am personally thinking of when I think of taking precautions.

My advice would be to be careful with how much you drink and going home with strangers. Not just because they might be raped but they may also be harmed in many other ways. That advice will be given to both genders.

I once went home with a man I didn't really know and he took all my money after we had consensual sex. There are arseholes out there and I think we can all agree that going home with people you have never met isn't a wise decision. It's why when we meet people online we tell people to let us know where they are and to meet in public because you simply don't know what that person is like.

Of course you can know someone for years and they can be a rapist without you knowing, but just because no one can prevent rape full stop doesn't mean that it isn't a good idea to teach children that going home with strangers might make you more vulnerable to being being harmed, and that includes rape. Not responsible but vulnerable.

YABVU
You need to get the image of the rapist hiding in the bushes out of your head. Stranger rape is extremely rare, it's more common to be raped by someone you know.

It comes down to one basic fact, rapists rape! By all means tell women to keep themselves safe with sensible tips, but you can not ward against rape. It occurs any time, any place.

I was shocked to read someone above was teaching her daughter "to keep her knickers on". What a judgement and naive approach to trying to keep your child safe. Teach your children to respect their own body and by all means keep safe but keeping your knickers on won't keep you safe.