AIBU with this perspective on rape?

[TheOnlyWayThrough]

Rape is vile and awful and always the rapists fault in its entirety. Of course it is, you'd be mad to disagree.

The bit I don't really get is the argument that women shouldn't need to take any responsibly for keeping themselves safe. The idea that women (and sometimes men) wouldn't be vulnerable if rapists didn't rape.

Well of course that is true, but that would be in an ideal world. And this certainly isn't one, so the point is moot surely? That principle could be applied to all walks of life where some people do inexplicably nasty things to others... which is basically ALL THE TIME. Some things are obviously worse than others, and rape is up there with the most obscene. It's not the only awful thing though.

You don't hear people saying that elderly people shouldn't need to have chains on their door for their own protection. And if someone forced their way into the home of someone elderly without a chain, I wouldn't for a second blame them/say they were asking for it. It's just that that a chain might have kept them a bit safer; that's why we have them.

A friend of mine was mugged walking home from work one night recently (it was about midnight). She wasn't hurt, but was of course shaken up and felt horribly violated. She won't be walking home again like that as it clearly isn't as safe as she thought. And I think that's sensible. But I don't feel that makes me a 'mugging apologist'. My friend wasn't at fault for the scummy thing that happened to her, but she DID put herself in a situation which wasn't very safe... and she got stung.

When I was burgled whilst sleeping I wished I'd have put the burglar alarm on as it might have stopped it from happening. I put it on every night now, rather than saying "I shouldn't have to; it's the burglars that shouldn't burgle".

Why is saying that it's a good idea to keep ourselves safe somehow misconstrued as mitigating rape in a way that doesn't seem to with other crimes? It's not intended that way, and it's not judging or blaming anyone who has been raped. It doesn't matter if you were drunk, half-naked, whatever - the crime was the rape and the victim did nothing wrong.

So is it unreasonable to think that in some situations, some ladies have put themselves in situations which weren't at all sensible and made them prey to scummy behaviour? And to think that that isn't the same thing as saying they are to blame or deserving of rape in any way?

(Just to add, this isn't about the Ched Evans case any more than any other particular case. And to anyone who has been a rape victim, I hope nothing I've said offends you, it certainly wasn't meant to. And I hope those who hurt you receive justice)

Hak, as the mother of 4 boys I have a rather strong interest in the subject…
I find the exaggerated 'gendering' of how boys and girls are being brought up really disconcerting and that goes far beyond 'pink' and 'blue' toys.
I think current ideas of 'masculinity' and 'felinity' are really damaging to both and I am at times frightened for my boys (I am sure if I had girls, I'd be frightened for them but for different reasons).

So, yes, consent is something we discuss rather a lot in this house (although it usually is along the lines of when to stop tickling an unwilling 'victim' or that they should only kiss anybody who wants to be kissed by them).

'Tis a frigging minefield.

I agree with you dogwood. You could be condemned for placing the onus on the girls to take charge of their bodies because that is letting boys off the hook and taking no responsibility for their actions. It's like saying girls are to blame if they don't take charge of their bodies and they are allowing boys to rape them. I am not saying that of course. I think girls have always been expected to be the gatekeepers of morality. Years ago because pregnancy was the outcome but with the pill young girls are even more vulnerable to male pressure.

In the same way advocating personal safety as I do can be condemned because it is victim blaming as they chose not to be safe therefore they are at fault. Also a stupid attitude to take imo.

I did think the situation is worse now with the outlook of girls who think as they do ^^ but looking at my own experiences, maybe not. Maybe just as bad only different.

It's so depressing.

I have been following this thread all day and it has been really interesting to read and not post on. My attitude has always been like the OPs - generally speaking.

However, something that this thread has made me think is where the boundary is between personal responsibility and victim blaming. It is actually so blurry because everyone comes at it from the view of their personal experience of what is and isn't acceptable.

Generally, I would think that going out flirting and snogging is not putting yourself in a vulnerable position - it is something I did a lot of in my early 20s and nothing bad ever happened; going back to someone's house after only just meeting them that evening - I thought I was invincible and I did it - I was never raped and most of the time, I never had sex; I took drugs with one guy - he didn't lay a finger on me.

In fact, in all my life the only time I ever felt in a vulnerable position was when I was sober, in a nightclub and a guy grabbed my bum and started commenting on my "fitness". I was petrified - I saw my friends and shouted to them. As far as I am concerned that was just good luck - it had nothing to do with how well I protected myself.

A poster pointed out that 90% of all rapes are done by someone the person knows. I can believe this. A rapist will always find a way of putting a victim in a vulnerable position. Having read this thread I am sure that the amount a woman "protects" herself has very little to do with whether or not she gets raped and it is more down to bad luck than bad judgement.

That applies especially I think to girls around 15-16. Then they are so intimidated by peer pressure and particularly male peer pressure. I think eventually most young women do realise they have a choice and can make better ones, but how much self esteem has been lost in the meantime? Sometimes you carry on making poor decisions because of this low self esteem and end up in relationships where rape is more likely.

Surely education at all levels should help address this? The media throw sexual images and celeb culture at impressionable young men and women when they should be educating them to respect themselves and assert that self respect. It should be school and home too, but how long has this been said and little changes?

I will repeat that 94% of men have never coerced or overwhelmed anyone into sex - that is, never raped anyone.

Probably some of them have invaded boundaries & been insensitive. This is probably to be expected, given the social messages we all receive.

But I think that, when we deal with the rape, the rest of it will come into clearer focus.

There are six rapists in a hundred men; roughly one in seventeen. They are the few who commit all the rapes.

Most of them don't even know they are rapists, because they think what they do is normal.

They think sex is something men to to women. They think all men coerce & overwhelm women for sex.

Nobody ever tells them any different. When they hear jokes in the pub, they don't realise the other 16 guys are laughing at the stereotype, not identifying with it. When they make a clumsy remark, someone slaps them on the back and says "Yeah, mate, in your dreams," or somesuch. Nobody tells them.

Nobody ever shows them any different. From Grease to James Bond to Miami Gang Bang, they see that women put up a fight or walk away, that they secretly want to be tricked or overwhelmed; that they grit their teeth or cry during sex, and that is good or irrelevant. On the rare occasions they see a portrayal of happy, consensual sex, they assume the man did something to her to get her that way.

Nobody teaches them any different. The guys at work make crass, objectifying remarks about the woman on Page Three. To the other 16 this is just noise. To him it's a lesson in acceptable attitudes. Anywhere he turns, there is some version of "She's asking for it" ... and he thinks he knows what "it" is. Nobody teaches them.

This is what we need to fix. We should start with our sons, yes, and also with our brothers and husbands and colleagues. Because they are the other 16, and they haven't realised what they are telling the rapist among them.

Can't argue with any of that Gallic

They think all men coerce & overwhelm women for sex. - Or men, of course. Sorry.

I suppose if I was going to be horribly provocative I could say you are putting the onus on women to police men and teach them decency and therefore if we fail we are to blame! But I won't because I understand completely what you say and agree with it! I would add that society as a whole needs to look at its portrayals of women and the media needs to take a more responsible attitude. No point in parents teaching children to respect one another if they get such mixed messages from the world at large.

Of course if you said rappers portraying women as compliant 'bitches' should stop then there goes freedom of expression.

Going to hide this now as it really is depressing me!

Gallic, v well put

Freedom of expression/speech comes with responsibility IMO - just because you can say something does not mean you should.

Weathervain

How many women get raped by strangers in dark alleyways?

Because generally women avoid them, I know I do.

But a lot of women still get raped.

By familiar people in familiar places.

there is a problem that some men do not understand what consent is. It is not women's responsibility though, anymore than it is, say, young people's responsibility if some older people are more likely to disregard drink driving laws because they were less widely enforced in the 60s and 70s.

YonicSleighdriver I agree with you.

I am only up to page 30 though.

YABU
Women have got the right to dress how they like, go where they like, drink what they like, the blame is not on them if they get raped.
It's a slippery slope if you start focussing on what the woman "should be doing".

Superb post Gallic

The first night I ended up in bed with dh (then boyfriend) we'd both been on a night out and I was a bit worse for wear. Not too drunk to have lapses in my memory or not know what I was doing. We just talked for a bit then fell asleep cuddling.

I think about that a lot lately. 100% mutual respect. It should always be like that.

As others have said, statistically, the safest thing to do is to go nowhere and never be alone with a man. I'm a single parent and have not been raped in absolutely years because I never go anywhere without my son or a friend (because I have to book babysitters). When I did go out, I got raped. Twice! Once by a man I was dating who 'saw me home' (ha!), once by a friend of a friend at a party.

I took all the precautions. I might have been a bit pissed at the party, granted, but I didn't expect to be grabbed and dragged into a room. I took a cab home though. Because I am a Good Girl who follows all the rules. And still gets raped.

Because men rape. And most women who are victims of rape are raped by men they know. So tell your daughters to avoid being alone with men. Ever. Actually, tell them to become single mothers because it's a bloody good way of avoiding rape.

How many women get raped by strangers in dark alleyways?
Because generally women avoid them, I know I do.

Yes limited. So do I.
But when we suggest that this is a sensible precaution, we get told it is victim blaming.

Because it is. And it isn't effective method of 'avoiding' rape. And it wasn't what limitedperiod was saying. If all the dark alleys in the world disappeared there would still be men raping women.

"A rapist will always find a way of putting a victim in a vulnerable position."

The Crown Prosecution guide to myths about rape and sexual violence. You might be interested in Myth 1, limited and Sally.

But of course we avoid dark alleys.

I think limited was saying the opposite of Sallyingforth, Gallic.