AIBU with this perspective on rape?

[TheOnlyWayThrough]

Rape is vile and awful and always the rapists fault in its entirety. Of course it is, you'd be mad to disagree.

The bit I don't really get is the argument that women shouldn't need to take any responsibly for keeping themselves safe. The idea that women (and sometimes men) wouldn't be vulnerable if rapists didn't rape.

Well of course that is true, but that would be in an ideal world. And this certainly isn't one, so the point is moot surely? That principle could be applied to all walks of life where some people do inexplicably nasty things to others... which is basically ALL THE TIME. Some things are obviously worse than others, and rape is up there with the most obscene. It's not the only awful thing though.

You don't hear people saying that elderly people shouldn't need to have chains on their door for their own protection. And if someone forced their way into the home of someone elderly without a chain, I wouldn't for a second blame them/say they were asking for it. It's just that that a chain might have kept them a bit safer; that's why we have them.

A friend of mine was mugged walking home from work one night recently (it was about midnight). She wasn't hurt, but was of course shaken up and felt horribly violated. She won't be walking home again like that as it clearly isn't as safe as she thought. And I think that's sensible. But I don't feel that makes me a 'mugging apologist'. My friend wasn't at fault for the scummy thing that happened to her, but she DID put herself in a situation which wasn't very safe... and she got stung.

When I was burgled whilst sleeping I wished I'd have put the burglar alarm on as it might have stopped it from happening. I put it on every night now, rather than saying "I shouldn't have to; it's the burglars that shouldn't burgle".

Why is saying that it's a good idea to keep ourselves safe somehow misconstrued as mitigating rape in a way that doesn't seem to with other crimes? It's not intended that way, and it's not judging or blaming anyone who has been raped. It doesn't matter if you were drunk, half-naked, whatever - the crime was the rape and the victim did nothing wrong.

So is it unreasonable to think that in some situations, some ladies have put themselves in situations which weren't at all sensible and made them prey to scummy behaviour? And to think that that isn't the same thing as saying they are to blame or deserving of rape in any way?

(Just to add, this isn't about the Ched Evans case any more than any other particular case. And to anyone who has been a rape victim, I hope nothing I've said offends you, it certainly wasn't meant to. And I hope those who hurt you receive justice)

the rape you are discussing is akin to mugging in my mind. problem is this is a very very small proportion of rape.

Of course walking down a pitch black alley is making yourself more likely to be mugged/raped.

The problem is that so many websites and organisations publish lists which come across as "You MUST do these things and MUST NOT do these other things because it is YOUR RESPONSIBILITY to avoid putting yourself at risk"

This.

Because if I tell my daughter not to get drunk and walk home alone as she is more likely to get attacked, but she ignores my advice and does and is raped how the fuck does she then not believe it was somehow her fault?

Though tbh that's pretty irrelevant, because despite what the media might lead you to believe it's an incredibly rare senario. I would be much better warning her never to have a boyfriend, or indeed ever be alone with any man ever, not an uncle, not a brother, not a grandfather, not a father.

"Don’t go out and get drunk, it could lead to you getting raped. Also, don’t have sex with someone because it could get you raped by someone they know. Don’t be young, that could definitely get you raped. While we’re at it, especially don’t be a child, that could really get you raped. Don’t be older either, that can get you raped. Don’t be living in a nursing home; women get raped there. In fact, what are you even doing in an establishment like that, are you asking for it? Don’t be single; single girls are sluts. Sluts get themselves raped. Don’t be married either or you could get raped by your husband. Don’t go jogging, that is just irresponsible. Don’t go to carparks, that can get you raped. And really don’t go jogging in a carpark, that is like so going to get you raped. Don’t go to public toilets, that can lead to rape. Don’t be dying; dying women get raped. Don’t ever be unconscious for any reason whatsoever, you’ll get yourself raped. Don’t be injured either. Raped. Avoid being physically disabled. Raped. And particularly avoid being intellectually disabled. You couldn’t get yourself more raped. Don’t go out alone, that is dangerous and you could get raped. But don’t accept lifts either; that is just asking for trouble. Don’t ever be naked, it could get you raped. Don’t wear clothing in which I could imagine you naked, that could get you raped. Don’t wear short skirts, they attract rape. Don’t wear baggy clothing or pyjamas or hospital gowns or a hijab either, women get raped in all those too. Don’t have a father, brother, uncle or grandfather. You could get raped by one of them. And oh my god, don’t even think about having a step-father. So raped. Don’t be ugly or you could deserve rape. Don’t be beautiful, you will be too tempting. Don’t flirt with men, this can get you raped. Don’t be rude to men either – playing with fire. Don’t take public transport. Raped. Don’t drive your own car, what if someone hid in the back seat, you could get raped. Don’t sell sex or anything close to it. Raped, raped, raped. Don’t be mistaken for someone who might sell sex. Obviously, you would get raped. Don’t be a soldier, a waitress, a teacher, a police officer, or a hairdresser. All these women can get raped, sometimes by their professional colleagues. Don’t dance, it could lead to you getting raped. Don’t relax, what if it made you look like you wanted it. Don’t be stupid, that will surely get you raped. Don’t be naive, you’ll deserve what comes to you. Don’t be adventurous, that is being stupid and stupid women get raped. Don’t be silent, who can be expected to know you didn’t want to be raped. Don’t be intimidated, that can signal weakness and will get you raped. Don’t be trusting, don’t be in awe, don’t be flattered by anyone – that could so get you raped. Especially don’t be female, that could really get you raped, although being male could get you raped too, so don’t do that either. And don’t be interesex or trans, people will think rape is for your own good".

*the rape you are discussing is akin to mugging in my mind. problem is this is a very very small proportion of rape.

Of course walking down a pitch black alley is making yourself more likely to be mugged/raped.*

But there are probably things you can do to reduce the probability of all types of rape. Don't get drunk. Don't be alone with a man. The question is whether people "should" take steps to do these things.

I've been raped, I didn't put myself in a situation. Basic details I went to a work do, my drink was spike and a colleague assaulted me.

I couldn't of been in a safer environment with colleagues, hotel, friends etc.

But I do agree with what you have said, you see some girls putting themselves in danger and it makes them an easier target.

No-one deserves the rape that is not what anyone said, I simply try to keep myself as safe as possible and I think it is sensible (and I have been both date raped and sexually assaulted) so no, if I walk home down a dark street drunk late at night I would not deserve to be raped at all, I simply would not take that chance

From canyourelate.org:

Ten rape prevention tips:

1. Don’t put drugs in women’s drinks.

1. When you see a woman walking by herself, leave her alone.

1. If you pull over to help a woman whose car has broken down, remember not to rape her.

1. If you are in an elevator and a woman gets in, don’t rape her.

1. When you encounter a woman who is asleep, the safest course of action is to not rape her.

1. Never creep into a woman’s home through an unlocked door or window, or spring out at her from between parked cars, or rape her.

1. Remember, people go to the laundry room to do their laundry. Do not attempt to molest someone who is alone in a laundry room.

1. Use the Buddy System! If it is inconvenient for you to stop yourself from raping women, ask a trusted friend to accompany you at all times.

1. Carry a rape whistle. If you find that you are about to rape someone, blow the whistle until someone comes to stop you.

10. Don’t forget: Honesty is the best policy. When asking a woman out on a date, don’t pretend that you are interested in her as a person; tell her straight up that you expect to be raping her later. If you don’t communicate your intentions, the woman may take it as a sign that you do not plan to rape her.

Brilliant post Gobbler. Is that passage quoted from somewhere?

Gobblers, all parents surely tell their kids not to get drunk and walk home alone? And if they get mugged or punched in the face, they don't usually feel they deserved it. So why would they feel they deserved to be raped?

Young men are much more likely to be victims of violent crime on the streets than any other demographic, so should we not warn them of the dangers of this in case they blame themselves if they get attacked?

how do you keep yourself safe though?

A huge percentage of rapes are by people known to the victim - to take proper precautions should you therefore avoid men you know? Clearly it is a nonsense.

It is a massively flawed argument though the ideas are well entrenched in society. As people have said above the way to avoid rape is by avoiding rapists. The idea that rape happens to drunk beautiful women in short skirts walking down dark alleys is a myth. And one which perpetuates victim blaming (if she wasn't drunk/beautiful/wearing that/walking/alone/in heels etc she wouldn't have been raped).

That these rape myths still persist, along with victim blaming mentality, is probably the greatest danger to women.

I do understand where you are coming from though OP - there are many well written articles on the subject online if you care to seek them out.

I see what you're saying and kind of agree. The problem though is that victims of other crimes have never been put on trial the way rape victims have been. If someone is on trial for mugging you the question is only 'are they the one that did it'. The fact you were mugged is not in question. With rape cases the question always seem to be 'was she actually raped or not' and raising questions about personal safety undermine that.

TheOriginalSteamingNit
Brilliant

That rape prevention post is brilliant, and spot on. But while we educate men and try to get the message across about consent etc, can't we also do anything at all to raise awareness of safety amongst women? The two don't need to be exclusive surely.

As a parent of a daughter I'm instilling the value of keeping your knickers on and not getting so drunk you don't know what you are doing

Shit.....that's where I went wrong then

It's stinking attitudes like that that mean when something bad happens (one more than just a few occassions) to us we don't tell anyone. We feel that we will be blamed. We feel responsible for what happened.

Thanks for that.

This, again, really?

It isn't that complicated.

Giving personal safety advice to our children and following it ourselves = a good idea. Lots of nasty things can happen in the world. People who get horribly drunk put themselves at all sorts of risks. Most likely of having an accident, being the victim of a minor crime, losing valuables, etc. They might, as a boy from my school did, decide to swim the harbour and drown.

Suggesting that following personal safety information is somehow linked to women "keeping themselves safe" from rape = victim blaming bullshit.

The crime rate overall is falling and has been for some time yet fear of crime is at all time high.

I believe there is a certain part of the political establishment who prey on and exacerbate fear. Fear is quite useful if you want to win elections, it drives people more conservative (small and big c).

Making women and girls afraid of strangers, afraid of staying out late and walking alone is a very neat way to disempower them and ensure they feel vulnerable and in need of protection. I think this suits some people very nicely thank you.

It doesn't suit me. I will not hide or stay home or be scared.

And if another woman who takes this choice is raped I will not be remotely interested in the circumstances of the rape. Just that it happened. What more could you possibly need to know?

Very few rapes are the classic 'stranger rape' that happens on a dark night, to a woman walking home alone.

It is pretty obvious that a man who decides, opportunistically, to rape any woman he can find walking home alone, is going to look for someone else if he doesn't find you. And he's probably going to find someone if he really looks, because some women are homeless, and some women can't afford not to be walking home alone (because they needed that job and couldn't afford transport, for example), and so on.

So, while you might prefer not to walk home in the dark alone (and I'm with you in that), I'm not sure it has much to do with lowering levels of rape. A possible issue is that, if you do this and you associate it with 'protecting myself from being raped' or 'taking responsibility,' you contribute to the culture of fear and shame that makes rape in other situations that much harder to report.

MoveAlongNothingtoSeeHere it's on various web sites, I don't know the original author. I have it saved in word for easy c&p where needed

Your argument is ridiculous, not everyone has a car or can afford a taxi, they need to walk to get anywhere, including home from work late at night in rough areas. That's life, it has to be done, people, including women need to leave their homes and walk alone. That does not justify anyone raping, mugging, beating or murdering them.

And you can be raped anywhere, accepting a lift home from a colleague (responsible for your own attack no matter what choice you make - eh?), in work, in the car park, safely tucked up in your own home.... Not everyone can afford burglar alarms either, so their guilty for every thug who breaks in too according to you.

Why not take it a step further, it's your own fault if you leave home without armed bodyguards and don't have your home wired up like Fort Knox? Wait, you wouldn't be able to afford those steps, would you? You only want to blame victims for what YOU can avoid given your particular situation, you're too silly to realise that other people don't have the same choices.

Rape is caused by rapists, the only other people responsible are the parents who failed to teach them right from wrong and apologists who justify and minimise their actions by claiming the victim deserving in some way or making excuses for the attacker to absolve them of responsibility.

We need tougher sentences for violent criminals to keep them off the streets so that they don't repeat their crimes and harsh penalties for shitty parents who raise their kids to be violent thugs.

A society where we can't freely walk down the street (or sit in our homes) without being attacked is not a free society. The problem is the attackers, no matter where they are, what time it is, if raping, beating, stealing, murdering etc is an irresistible temptation to them then they need to be removed from society. They'll hurt anyone if they get the opportunity and if everyone is hiding in their wardrobes to evade them, they'll just break in.

Excellent post Gobblersknob.

Following on from what Jeanne said.

Not walking home alone at night won't prevent rape. It might prevent your rape, but it won't protect someone else who doesn't have an alternative but to walk.

So a lot of these tips are actually saying "Don't rape me, rape the other girl".

And that's why we need to work to prevent men from raping, not to restrict women's freedom.

I will tell my children to avoid getting offensively drunk as you are more likely to behave like a wanker and get punched in the face, or jump off a bridge to go for a swim in January, or make seriously bad judgements when crossing roads, as these death by heavy blow to the head, freezing water or juggernaut is less likely to happen if you are not pissed out of your skull.

However I will not tell my daughter to not get drunk as she is more likely to be a victim of rape, because it is bollocks.