AIBU with this perspective on rape?

[TheOnlyWayThrough]

Rape is vile and awful and always the rapists fault in its entirety. Of course it is, you'd be mad to disagree.

The bit I don't really get is the argument that women shouldn't need to take any responsibly for keeping themselves safe. The idea that women (and sometimes men) wouldn't be vulnerable if rapists didn't rape.

Well of course that is true, but that would be in an ideal world. And this certainly isn't one, so the point is moot surely? That principle could be applied to all walks of life where some people do inexplicably nasty things to others... which is basically ALL THE TIME. Some things are obviously worse than others, and rape is up there with the most obscene. It's not the only awful thing though.

You don't hear people saying that elderly people shouldn't need to have chains on their door for their own protection. And if someone forced their way into the home of someone elderly without a chain, I wouldn't for a second blame them/say they were asking for it. It's just that that a chain might have kept them a bit safer; that's why we have them.

A friend of mine was mugged walking home from work one night recently (it was about midnight). She wasn't hurt, but was of course shaken up and felt horribly violated. She won't be walking home again like that as it clearly isn't as safe as she thought. And I think that's sensible. But I don't feel that makes me a 'mugging apologist'. My friend wasn't at fault for the scummy thing that happened to her, but she DID put herself in a situation which wasn't very safe... and she got stung.

When I was burgled whilst sleeping I wished I'd have put the burglar alarm on as it might have stopped it from happening. I put it on every night now, rather than saying "I shouldn't have to; it's the burglars that shouldn't burgle".

Why is saying that it's a good idea to keep ourselves safe somehow misconstrued as mitigating rape in a way that doesn't seem to with other crimes? It's not intended that way, and it's not judging or blaming anyone who has been raped. It doesn't matter if you were drunk, half-naked, whatever - the crime was the rape and the victim did nothing wrong.

So is it unreasonable to think that in some situations, some ladies have put themselves in situations which weren't at all sensible and made them prey to scummy behaviour? And to think that that isn't the same thing as saying they are to blame or deserving of rape in any way?

(Just to add, this isn't about the Ched Evans case any more than any other particular case. And to anyone who has been a rape victim, I hope nothing I've said offends you, it certainly wasn't meant to. And I hope those who hurt you receive justice)

I go out at night because its fun.
I sometimes get drunk because its fun.
I sometimes walk home from the bus stop because I can't afford taxis all the time.
I choose not to let my whole life be dictated by someone else's perception of what makes me safe. Non of the people who I know who have been raped were drunk or walking home alone or any other 'risky' behaviour.

YABU. The 'keeping yourself safe' argument usually means 'curtailing your freedom to a preposterous extent with a series of ridiculous Catch 22 rules'

Even if you manage to follow the rules you can't win.

I don't want to stay in the house alone all the time. I want to go out, work, have friends, drink, take my knickers off, walk home. All of these are normal activities that I am entitled to do. Non of them are consent and it's really not very confusing. Men don't think 'If she didn't want to have sex with me she would have got a cab' (or walked if the man is a rapist taxi driver). They know they don't have consent, they know they're rapists, they just don't give a shit and it suits them for everyone to believe that rape is what other men do, not them, they just had sex with their housemates friend when she fell asleep on the sofa and that's not 'real rape'.

It is simply not true that all women in all situations are equally likely to be raped, or that there is nothing we can do to make it less likely. It is not victim blaming to look at the facts. All of the available evidence is that there are lifestyle factors which can make a woman more vulnerable to sexual assult. Alcohol being one of them. I have been flamed for this before but this government report www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/214970/sexual-offending-overview-jan-2013.pdf

states on p14 "Sexual victimisation rates were higher for females who reported visiting a pub at
least once a week (4.3 per cent) or a night club one to three times a month (5.6
per cent). Those who visited a night club at least four times a month had the
highest victimisation rate of any characteristic covered by the CSEW (9.2 per
cent)" I am making the assumption that visiting a club involved drinking. You may think this is not a correct assumption.

It's an interesting report to read, there are some issues with how the statistics are gathered, which is acknowledged

"This is an Official Statistics bulletin produced by statisticians in the Ministry of Justice, Home Office and the Office for National Statistics. It brings together, for the first time, a range of official statistics from across the crime and criminal justice system, providing an overview of sexual offending in England and Wales. The report is structured to highlight: the victim experience; the police role in recording and detecting the crimes; how the various criminal justice agencies deal with an offender once identified; and the criminal histories of sex offenders.

Providing such an overview presents a number of challenges, not least that the available information comes from different sources that do not necessarily cover the same period, the same people (victims or offenders) or the same offences. This is explained further in the report."

And yes - we are more likely to be raped by men we know "Around 90 per cent of victims of the most serious sexual offences in the previous year knew the perpetrator, compared with less than half for other sexual offences" but that totally tallies with my own experience, and the report findings, that rape and alcohol consumption are often connected.

The only person responsible for a rape is the rapist, but there are things we can do to make it less likely that we will be victims of some rapists.

FecklessFairy I agree with everything you say in you post of 13.04 and I will continue to walk home. I've no intention of giving up my job and even if I found one closer to home there would still be the walk home at the end of the night.

My point was the OP implied that her friend who was mugged when walking home late at night was partly responsible because she chose to walk home late at night. I was simply pointing out that, for me at least, and many other's I'm sure, that there isn't an option other than to walk but she would still put some of the blame on us which, imo, is ridiculous.

So, no alcohol, pubs or nightclubs for women! Simples!

Yes, women who leave the house sometimes and therefore encounter men, are more likely to get raped.

Have you corrected that study for women at the clubs drinking coke?

What's your point?

latara You could still report that incident to the police. The fact it was a while ago and you dot recall the date is not fatal to an investigation. They will encourage you to recall the time period as best you can (what season was it, were your kids on holiday from school, was it light/dark at that time of day) and narrow it down but it's not the end of it if you don't recall.

Another point with the burglary analogy, given that it's been brought up: you know why you are advised to have a burglar alarm, grow spiky plants under windows, have a door with two locking points, have locks on all of your windows, etc.? Because it makes your property very marginally more difficult to burgle and increases the chance that the burglar will just choose to burgle somebody else instead. If everyone did those things there wouldn't be fewer burglaries; it would just level the playing field so that burglars went back to targeting houses even though they had burglar alarms, and then we'd all be advised to get security grills and guard dogs to put us back in a new marginally more difficult category. The only thing that's going to reduce burglaries is burglars choosing not to burgle.

Let's say that you do the "right things" (and are lucky that the friend you choose to walk home with or the taxi driver that you accept a lift from aren't rapists) and it happens to actually deter a rapist on this one occasion (lucky again given that these factors will have no effect on most rapes) -- it will only be because the rapist has chosen to rape somebody else instead. And there's something very off about being (effectively) pleased with yourself because someone else got raped or smugly saying (effectively) "well, I have told my daughters to try to make sure that someone else gets raped instead". And if everyone did the "right things", all the time? There wouldn't be any fewer rapes. And goodness knows what we'd start telling women that they "ought" to do to put themselves into a marginally lower risk category.

It's clear from the "missing people" thread alone, though, that it's generally a good idea not to get drunk and walk home alone. If someone doesn't do that they are much less likely to accidentally drown or be hit by a car, and nor will someone else drown or be hit by a car in some kind of karmic balancing act. And if everyone does those right things then the number of accidental deaths will go down, unless you're living in a Final Destination movie.

Good point, Yves. And before too long, it all gets a bit...Taliban in that what women would be advised to do and not do would be restrictive enough to mean they could not function and free and equal individuals in our society. At which point, rapes would probably increase exponentially.

Locking up your laptop will stop it getting stolen.

Alarming your house will stop burglars entering undetected.

Keeping an eye on your purse will stop pickpockets.

Nothing will stop you being raped.

THIS!

A person can be raped in any situation where there happens to be a rapist. If we, as women are to keep ourselves safe that would involve never ever being alone with any man, at all, ever. So no working in an office with male colleagues, no being in the same room as your husband, no having a drink in a pub with male friends...etc.

Also a fricking rape alarm isn't going to help you when your husband rapes you, or when your best male friend sexually assaults you, or when your male boss gropes you, is it?

OP I totally see where you are coming from. However it is likely to cause the reaction you are getting. I know I've put myself in some precarious situations way back when I was young and naieve and try to warn my DD about keeping safe. I also warn my DS about being careful with girls particularly if they have too much to drink. Being careful doesn't mean we are protecting rapists at all........................

states on p14 "Sexual victimisation rates were higher for females who reported visiting a pub at least once a week (4.3 per cent) or a night club one to three times a month (5.6 per cent). Those who visited a night club at least four times a month had the highest victimisation rate of any characteristic covered by the CSEW (9.2 per cent)" I am making the assumption that visiting a club involved drinking. You may think this is not a correct assumption.

There you go women need to stop going out and socializing. I'm sure there is a wall round here I can bang my head on. This problem needs sorting by putting restrictions on the rapists not on the victims. We need to stop putting the onus on the victims to take steps to prevent it, this does not mean we can't teach personal safety generally ie getting seriously drunk is not wise neither is walking alone along dark paths but the risks in both those cases are more than just rape so stop the rape advice and just give general advice. The issue comes in when you start to say you can prevent rape by.....

I was raped in the middle of the day, in the middle of summer, while sensibly dressed, stone cold sober and by someone I thought I knew. You can lower the risk but you can not remove it.

I agree with you OP, but it's pointless arguing this point on MN.

I have never met anyone who holds the views expressed on these threads.

In reality it is a widely held view that sensible precautions to keep safe should be taken by both men and women in all kinds of situations and for all sorts of reasons.

Where do you live that you've never met anyone with the views expressed on these threads? 1952?

'Running and locking a door, screaming, fighting back, spraying something in the face, kneeing them in the bollocks. All of these things and more could stop a rape.'

Christ can't you see how offensives that is to a rape victim? Telling them they just didn't fight hard enough. Some people freeze, it isn't their fault.

more- those are really unpleasant rape myths. If only it was as simple as kneeing a rapist in the balls.

Oh, and in many cases those actions just result in rape and extra violence.

This week a 14 year old girl was grabbed off the street in the middle of the afternoon and raped by two men. Should women just not go anywhere alone, ever?

The person most likely to ever rape me (statistically) is my husband. Should women just never be alone in the presence of a man?

Your argument is absurd.

Yabu
Some people affected by rape, could not have done anything to keep themselves "safe" let alone consider the "shouldn't have to".

morethanpotatoprints do you really not have any concept of how deeply offensive that is?

Running and locking a door, screaming, fighting back, spraying something in the face, kneeing them in the bollocks. All of these things and more could stop a rape.

Thanks. It's nice to know that I just didn't fight hard enough.

I really can see both sides of this. What I think is unfair is when the OP is called a victim blamer.

Not once has she said anyone deserves to be raped for any reason and I think it is unfair that we can't have a discussion about personal safety and rape without being called a victim blamer.

Like someone said above, I will tell my children not to walk home at night alone incase they are mugged or attacked.. if they do walk home and a crime is committed against them I do not believe for one minute that they would believe I am blaming them because they didn't take my advice. My ex husband was mugged walking down an alleyway late at night. I always told him not to walk down there as people have been attacked before. When he was mugged he was never made to feel like it was his fault for not following advice.

Because stranger rape is rare I won't be telling my daughters to not walk home alone incase they are raped, but I certainly will teach them about the dangers of being very very drunk. I too once went home with a few men I didn't know when I was drunk. I would not have done so when sober. Thankfully they weren't rapists but I put myself in a vulnerable position. Not just from rape, but from them mugging me, hitting me, all sorts.

We all know that we can never protect ourselves fully from rape. We might be able to lower our risks ever so slightly though.

Taking precautions from ANY crime does not mean a person is responsible if something happens. If someone said 'well she deserved it because she walked home alone' then that is victim blaming. Talking about possible precautions we can make is not saying anyone is responsible if something happens to them.

Rape is always the rapist's fault. No one is disputing that. I think it is important to be able to discuss this subject without name calling and being accused of victim blaming. You don't have to agree with the op's views, but she clearly isn't victim blaming.

Self-defence experts specifically tell you not to try kneeing someone in the bollocks if you are attacked. It puts you dangerously off-balance (and so, using some warped logic, makes you MORE LIKELY TO GET RAPED). Sheesh, are you not taking any responsibility for keeping yourself safe?

I also agree that once a rape has happened these conversations have no place whatsoever.