AIBU with this perspective on rape?

[TheOnlyWayThrough]

Rape is vile and awful and always the rapists fault in its entirety. Of course it is, you'd be mad to disagree.

The bit I don't really get is the argument that women shouldn't need to take any responsibly for keeping themselves safe. The idea that women (and sometimes men) wouldn't be vulnerable if rapists didn't rape.

Well of course that is true, but that would be in an ideal world. And this certainly isn't one, so the point is moot surely? That principle could be applied to all walks of life where some people do inexplicably nasty things to others... which is basically ALL THE TIME. Some things are obviously worse than others, and rape is up there with the most obscene. It's not the only awful thing though.

You don't hear people saying that elderly people shouldn't need to have chains on their door for their own protection. And if someone forced their way into the home of someone elderly without a chain, I wouldn't for a second blame them/say they were asking for it. It's just that that a chain might have kept them a bit safer; that's why we have them.

A friend of mine was mugged walking home from work one night recently (it was about midnight). She wasn't hurt, but was of course shaken up and felt horribly violated. She won't be walking home again like that as it clearly isn't as safe as she thought. And I think that's sensible. But I don't feel that makes me a 'mugging apologist'. My friend wasn't at fault for the scummy thing that happened to her, but she DID put herself in a situation which wasn't very safe... and she got stung.

When I was burgled whilst sleeping I wished I'd have put the burglar alarm on as it might have stopped it from happening. I put it on every night now, rather than saying "I shouldn't have to; it's the burglars that shouldn't burgle".

Why is saying that it's a good idea to keep ourselves safe somehow misconstrued as mitigating rape in a way that doesn't seem to with other crimes? It's not intended that way, and it's not judging or blaming anyone who has been raped. It doesn't matter if you were drunk, half-naked, whatever - the crime was the rape and the victim did nothing wrong.

So is it unreasonable to think that in some situations, some ladies have put themselves in situations which weren't at all sensible and made them prey to scummy behaviour? And to think that that isn't the same thing as saying they are to blame or deserving of rape in any way?

(Just to add, this isn't about the Ched Evans case any more than any other particular case. And to anyone who has been a rape victim, I hope nothing I've said offends you, it certainly wasn't meant to. And I hope those who hurt you receive justice)

AliceinWinterWonderland You kind of summed up what how I feel in terms of keeping ourselves safe:

I would say that those types of discussions are appropriate PRIOR to an incident. You know - reminding your teenage/adult dd or friend to take precautions.

However....

AFTERWARDS, if there has BEEN an incident... those types of discussions are OFF LIMITS. Because they have no bearing on the incident at all. And if something happens, it is ALWAYS the fault of the perpetrator... without fail, without reservation, without any recriminations on the victim.

If I cross a one-way road, I look both ways. There shouldn't be anyone driving the wrong way, and I would be innocent, but I can avoid that risk too.

Yes, but if you didn't look both ways, and you got knocked over because someone was driving recklessly the wrong way, no one would say 'oh if only she had looked both ways....'

We do live in a mulitcultural society where different cultures have very different views on what is okay and not okay when it comes to the treatment of women.

What do you mean, exactly?

I kept my coat on, let alone my knickers. But it didn't make any difference.

This happened about 4 years ago & he's moved up country with his wife & child; still working as a surgeon.
But even now he's requested me as a FB friend - obviously I haven't responded, but it's really weird.
The whole incident makes me wonder if he's done it before & how he treats his wife.
But like I say I can't report it, I can't even remember the exact date it happened.

HouseWhereNobodyLives That is truly horrific and should never have happened to you. I can't even begin to imagine . I'm not at all saying that you should have just not removed your knickers.

I don't get is why rape is singled over other horrible crimes where a person is attacked (forget the burglary thing, I wasn't comparing a house to a woman, it had happened to me so it came to mind). Why do these emotionally charged debates not happen when someone is beaten up, or killed? Perhaps it is because some people really do believe the victim is at fault and that muddies the water. I don't know. Anyway, no offence meant MNers!

That's because no-one EVER says that the victim somehow attracted it because of what they wore, or how drunk they were, or where they were or what time of day it was, or their previous behaviour in relation to the attacker.

But a woman who has been raped? There will be questions about her level of alcohol, her clothes, her sexual history, her relationship with the attacker...

The only time this doesn't happen is when a woman is raped by a man who has broken into her house.

Sure, Sallying, that makes sense. But does that mean you have any sort of moral obligation to do those things? You choose to. Do you think in general that women ought to?

Moral obligation? No I don't think so. There are many life choices that have various degrees of risk - riding a bike is dangerous in London and innocent riders get crushed by trucks. I choose to avoid that risk, but I can't tell others not to.

It does bug me, this rhetoric of 'living in the world'. What do you think the rest of us are, enclosed nuns?

We all know the realities about rape. They don't become less real, just because some of us prefer not to engage in magical thinking about 'keeping myself safe'.

OP sometimes I finish work at 10pm. I have to walk to the bus station (10 mins approx) to catch a bus to my town. Bus arrives in my town between 10.55pm and 11pm. If I'm lucky I'm able to get bus A which drops me off 15/20 mins walk from home, if not then bus B which is a 20/25 mins walk. I can't afford to get a taxi from my town, I'm on nmw, and I could be raped in the 10 minute walk from work to the bus station. So is it my fault if I get raped? What would you suggest I do? Give up my job? It took me two years to find this job and I'd have no money to pay the bills if I did.

Even when a man breaks in the defence sometimes claim she invited him in and consented. It has happened.
Sure. Rape is evil and must be rooted out. I don't know when, but we should not stop trying.
Punishment should be key, and part of that is to not let rapists out to carry on lucrative careers in the public eye after serving only half their sentence.
In the meantime I will try to avoid increasing my personal risk, if only by a small percentage.

I choose to avoid that risk, but I can't tell others not to.

In that case, Sallyingforth, I think you'd be hard pushed to find anyone disagreeing, then (although I haven't read the whole thread).

1. There are possible actions - such as not getting drunk - which decrease (although certainly do not remove) the risk of being raped. This is pretty clear.

2. A person can choose to take those actions (to deny an individual this choice would be rather extreme).

It's only when judgments creep in of people who don't choose to take those risk-reducing actions that we have a problem.

Whilst in some situations you could take action to lower the likelihood of yourself getting raped (keeping hold of your drink for example) in other situations there is nothing you could do have done. I also agree that the former is ultimately about protecting yourself but just means another victim will be targeted instead.

My first sexual experience was being coerced into sex. I'm not comfortable calling it rape but from threads like these have realised others might. I was 15, he was 14. It was the first time for both of us. I didn't really want to do it but didn't have the self esteem or confidence to assert myself, I was also depressed and suicidal at that point in my life. I didn't like it and afterwards would tell him no. My no's were never good enough though. He would pout, he would sulk, or get angry. He made me feel so shit and unhappy that eventually I would give in just so he would leave me alone - it's hard not to feel like this means I said yes, "if I'd have just kept saying no..." That's actually a thought that comes back to me often, that I should have just said no. And then I realise I did, again and again and again. But if I'd just kept saying no... He always knew I didn't want to do it, he'd often berate me for this and talk about how unhappy it made him. So I started to initiate it too.

Obviously I could have prevented this all by just not being with him, that would have been such an easy answer right? Don't be in a relationship with some one who will coerce and bully you into having sex, don't have mental health issues or be at a bad point in your life - you must be as strong as possible to ward off any pressure some one may apply on you to dtd. Even if you don't recognise or understand what is going on, you must recognise and understand it in order to make sure it doesn't happen. Never be vulnerable, never be weak. These are important variables that will help you minimise your risk of being raped by some one you know.

People will say again and again how most often it's your partner or some one you know who's most likely to rape you, the stranger in the dark situation is so rare. I do believe that. Some people are more vulnerable than others and don't even realise that what's happening to them is wrong.

The 'different cultures' thing is no excuse either.

This doctor had been in the country long enough to understand the law & moral code here - he's a very intelligent man after all.

In his country women are 'second-class citizens' but he knew that is not the case in the UK & spoke to us all as equals. Anyway: in his country rapists are hung so he has no excuse not to know it was wrong.

I'm internet dating now & the whole incident (plus other incidents) has made me very careful.
But how careful do you have to be?

I'm finding that men I want to date don't understand how vulnerable a woman can feel.
They always suggest picking me up in their car - no thanks.
And meeting in a pub in an evening where they start drinking pint after pint then get a bit too friendly.
And going for a walk in the woods on a third date - I didn't really know my date still & felt very worried about that.

You can see how just that one incident has affected me - because it is awful when it's someone you know as it stops you trusting men at all.

I could be raped in the 10 minute walk from work to the bus station.

Yes, you could. You could also be knocked over by a car, mugged, struck by lightening, have a heart attack. None of it would be your fault. But, I'm afraid it is just one of the chances we have to take in this life.

You could also walk home safely for the next 30 years.

Just saw this: www.theguardian.com/world/2015/jan/09/bill-cosby-jokes-to-woman-you-have-to-be-careful-about-drinking-around-me

If I'd been talking about how drunk women are a risk to themselves, I would feel a bit sick now.

Jeanne, stop flaming

Part of the reason this sort of thinking is so pernicious is that it 'others' rape - rape is a crime committed by seedy strangers in dark alleys, on irresponsible drunk women in micro skirts. When actually, rapists are husbands, fathers, work colleagues; men who other people think of, and think of themselves as good blokes.

This leads to attitudes like the repugnant Julia Hartley Brewer on Question Time, that the rapist Ched Evans shouldn't have been convicted because what he did wasn't 'proper' rape, he just had sex with someone without her consent . I suspect it's why RCE maintains his innocence - in his head he's not a real rapist, like a pervert in a mucky raincoat lurking in dark alleys to assault all the drunk underdressed women who irresponsibly go into them after dark - he's a normal bloke who just shagged a tart who was obviously up for it because she had shagged his mate.

And the "it's just the world we live in" defeatism is depressing too. What about improving our world by changing attitudes of male entitlement? This is why it's actually fine and a good thing to make an example of RCE - as a society we need other men and boys to see that using a privileged position to rape means losing that privilege, for good.

That comment from Cosby was sickening.

I nearly imploded in a teeth gnashing rage watching Julia Hartley Brewer on QT last night.

The problems with taking precautions is that it's never enough and leaves the victim with a sense of self blame, never mind the blame that others place.

If you had avoided this street, that cab, that party, not missed the last bus, not assumed your neighbour was a good guy, not stayed over etc then it wouldn't have happened. The logical end point to women taking precautions against rape would be to wear a chastity belt and I suspect that everyone of us would reject that as sensible.

The only thing that needs to happen is for men not to rape. They need to understand that only they can make that happen.

Which means educating all children but especially boys that they have no entitlement to sex and educating all children that their bodies belong to them.