AIBU with this perspective on rape?

[TheOnlyWayThrough]

Rape is vile and awful and always the rapists fault in its entirety. Of course it is, you'd be mad to disagree.

The bit I don't really get is the argument that women shouldn't need to take any responsibly for keeping themselves safe. The idea that women (and sometimes men) wouldn't be vulnerable if rapists didn't rape.

Well of course that is true, but that would be in an ideal world. And this certainly isn't one, so the point is moot surely? That principle could be applied to all walks of life where some people do inexplicably nasty things to others... which is basically ALL THE TIME. Some things are obviously worse than others, and rape is up there with the most obscene. It's not the only awful thing though.

You don't hear people saying that elderly people shouldn't need to have chains on their door for their own protection. And if someone forced their way into the home of someone elderly without a chain, I wouldn't for a second blame them/say they were asking for it. It's just that that a chain might have kept them a bit safer; that's why we have them.

A friend of mine was mugged walking home from work one night recently (it was about midnight). She wasn't hurt, but was of course shaken up and felt horribly violated. She won't be walking home again like that as it clearly isn't as safe as she thought. And I think that's sensible. But I don't feel that makes me a 'mugging apologist'. My friend wasn't at fault for the scummy thing that happened to her, but she DID put herself in a situation which wasn't very safe... and she got stung.

When I was burgled whilst sleeping I wished I'd have put the burglar alarm on as it might have stopped it from happening. I put it on every night now, rather than saying "I shouldn't have to; it's the burglars that shouldn't burgle".

Why is saying that it's a good idea to keep ourselves safe somehow misconstrued as mitigating rape in a way that doesn't seem to with other crimes? It's not intended that way, and it's not judging or blaming anyone who has been raped. It doesn't matter if you were drunk, half-naked, whatever - the crime was the rape and the victim did nothing wrong.

So is it unreasonable to think that in some situations, some ladies have put themselves in situations which weren't at all sensible and made them prey to scummy behaviour? And to think that that isn't the same thing as saying they are to blame or deserving of rape in any way?

(Just to add, this isn't about the Ched Evans case any more than any other particular case. And to anyone who has been a rape victim, I hope nothing I've said offends you, it certainly wasn't meant to. And I hope those who hurt you receive justice)

If some stranger pushing his tongue down your throat and holding you tight enough so that you can't wriggle free, then to me it's a sexual assault. But of course you're right, I wasn't hurt.

All I can see here is you telling me I am to blame for the things that have happened to me. After all on two occasions I have put myself in risky situations and been a victim. I don't feel I am to blame for anything.

No what we are telling you is that you did not put yourself at risk the person who put you at risk, the only person responsible in anyway shape or form is the person who attacked you.

Baffled that this thread is still going.

Huh?

Who is telling you that you are to blame for anything

& you said you got drunk and ended up kissing a total stranger and only later clarified that you were reluctant, and then said then held and forced. Most times when people get drunk and kiss total strangers it's happy days so no I didn't leap to the conclusion that it was an assault based on what you said initially. I took it at face value.

Yes of course society should make men aware of their behaviour but mostly about their attitude as it's this that fuels the behaviour.

But by demonising all men (brothers and husbands included) we are alienating the very people who should be on our side and who should be advising their friends that xyz isn't acceptable.

Unfortunately the genie is well and truly out of the bottle. We live in a sexualised society. Children are exposed to sexual images and messages in music vids and the celebrity society. It encourages men to think of women as sex objects. Porn is seen from late childhood onwards by most men. They learn to objectify women, and even the most diligent parents find it difficult to counter this peer group effect.

As this cultural effect is so huge I do think it's sensible for men and women to think in terms of personal safety. If you want to twist that simple POV then please do.

There was a program about the Yorkshire ripper and a retired detective actually said...it was when 'innocent' women were being murdered that real panic set in. Fgs! I really hope that thinking has gone but I doubt it. That was real victim blaming rather than criticising someone who is exercising reasonable caution.

I got drunk and ended up kissing a total stranger who was pulling me off from my friends and luckily my friends (male and female) pulled him away

No idea how this can be considered consensual

I'm baffled why people come on threads and say

I'm baffled this thread is still going on

It's still going on because people are choosing to have an online 'conversation'

There are some countries where women cannot drink, go out alone, wear anything but full coverage.

Do we really think there is no rape in these societies?

Well I don't know, I asked you to clarify what you meant by pulling you off your friends. People had been drinking, you said you kissed a bloke, I didn't think "that sounds all wrong". In my head you were a bit sozzled, you snogged a bloke, your friends wanted you to go with them and pulled you away, he wanted you to stay with him, and everyone was good natured.

I think a lot of the trouble here is with people not wanting to name the problem isn't it, and in the press and stuff as well. There is an awful lot of minimising language around, which doesn't help identify severity and widespread nature of the problem.

And once you clarified what happened clearly that is an assault and isn't it awful that a. you viewed that as a result of having "put yourself at risk" and b. we live in a society where a man who is known to be "not nice" when it comes to women and sexual matters is free from condemnation or consequence.

The next women he grabbed might not have got away and that isn't her fault it's his and why can't we do anything about these men?

I have no idea. I don't think they are every man, not be a long way, but yes, attitudes to women from a lot of men do stink. Do they realise their attitude is bad? I fear not. It is minimised by men and by women as well. Has it really changed though in the last 50 years? Jimmy saville proves that attitudes haven't really moved on.

Looking back at several incidents in my life I am appalled at how frequent and how severe (a patient put his hand up my uniform and into my pants in a cubicle and I said absolutely nothing) not to mention flashers and bottom pinchers! I guess that it is looking back and realising how dangerous some situations were that makes me cautious.

and why can't we do anything about these men?

Let's face it - we are never going to stop a minority of men being rapists, any more than we can stop a minority being murderers.

What we can do is press for the maximum possible sentence for rapists to deter them from trying it. And once they are convicted to keep them in jail for the full sentence rather than let them out after half-time to taunt their victims and look for new ones.

House. I totally agree with the porn thing, and hate it, but you come up against the 'personal freedom' thing every time. One part of me says people have the right to make choices about what they see and the other is a gut reaction that the majority degrades women. But I know plenty of women who say that view is wrong too!

and why can't we do anything about these men?

I think we can.
Raise our sons to not be rapists.
Raise all our children to expect sex to be a mutually enjoyable activity, actively wanted by both parties involved.

And yes, use current law to its full extent.
I am all for law changes, but actually legislation as it stands if used would be fit for purpose if used to its full extent every time.

I deal with young people and their contraceptive/safe sex needs from time to time. You'd be appalled how often young girls (usually) look at me like this when I suggest sex can be fun. It is clearly something they do because it is expected of them, whether they particularly want to or not. They would never identify this as 'rape' but I would question the quality of their 'consent'.
I think empowering young people to say 'no' (men and women) is part of increasing confidence and self-worth without sexual activity.
I am not sure whether I am making sense here - I do not intend to put the onus of 'managing' sexual activity on the girl as I do agree the 'gatekeeper' role is a dangerous one to have thrust upon them.

I think that it would help if women and girls (and boys and men) were encouraged to report "minor" sexual offences.

A lot of this stuff is done by repeat offenders and so if it were taken seriously - rather than "don't make a fuss" or "laugh it off" - then a lot of these men would be on the radar before they escalated anywhere near more serious assault and rape, and there would be more of a deterrent.

At the moment a lot of people just don't feel there is anything wrong with a lot of behaviour from men which is actually illegal and is right to be illegal.

Agree that porn has a lot to answer for in teaching our young people both boys and girls that sex is something that men do to women and the roles are for the men to push women to do things that the women are quite probably not going to enjoy.

Education is a way forward with this but it saddens me that a lot of this stuff is not compulsory in schools and people can pull their kids out.

I have several times on this thead talked about raising our sons not to be rapists, but nobody picked it up. I suspect it's too challenging an idea........

House I think you're right about attitudes towards sex. These attitudes can only change if we discuss things.

For instance, I teach in a boys secondary school. AFAIK, we teach that sex must be consensual, but I can't find anywhere in our PSHE curriculum where we discuss in detail what consent actually means. That needs to change.

Also, I recently realised that if I'm out in a club dancing with friends, then random men grabbing my arse are actually committing sexual assault. Can't believe I didn't realise it sooner - probably because it happened a lot when I was younger and nobody else seemed to make a fuss so I assumed it was normal.