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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

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AIBU with this perspective on rape?

846 replies

TheOnlyWayThrough · 09/01/2015 11:24

Rape is vile and awful and always the rapists fault in its entirety. Of course it is, you'd be mad to disagree.

The bit I don't really get is the argument that women shouldn't need to take any responsibly for keeping themselves safe. The idea that women (and sometimes men) wouldn't be vulnerable if rapists didn't rape.

Well of course that is true, but that would be in an ideal world. And this certainly isn't one, so the point is moot surely? That principle could be applied to all walks of life where some people do inexplicably nasty things to others... which is basically ALL THE TIME. Some things are obviously worse than others, and rape is up there with the most obscene. It's not the only awful thing though.

You don't hear people saying that elderly people shouldn't need to have chains on their door for their own protection. And if someone forced their way into the home of someone elderly without a chain, I wouldn't for a second blame them/say they were asking for it. It's just that that a chain might have kept them a bit safer; that's why we have them.

A friend of mine was mugged walking home from work one night recently (it was about midnight). She wasn't hurt, but was of course shaken up and felt horribly violated. She won't be walking home again like that as it clearly isn't as safe as she thought. And I think that's sensible. But I don't feel that makes me a 'mugging apologist'. My friend wasn't at fault for the scummy thing that happened to her, but she DID put herself in a situation which wasn't very safe... and she got stung.

When I was burgled whilst sleeping I wished I'd have put the burglar alarm on as it might have stopped it from happening. I put it on every night now, rather than saying "I shouldn't have to; it's the burglars that shouldn't burgle".

Why is saying that it's a good idea to keep ourselves safe somehow misconstrued as mitigating rape in a way that doesn't seem to with other crimes? It's not intended that way, and it's not judging or blaming anyone who has been raped. It doesn't matter if you were drunk, half-naked, whatever - the crime was the rape and the victim did nothing wrong.

So is it unreasonable to think that in some situations, some ladies have put themselves in situations which weren't at all sensible and made them prey to scummy behaviour? And to think that that isn't the same thing as saying they are to blame or deserving of rape in any way?

(Just to add, this isn't about the Ched Evans case any more than any other particular case. And to anyone who has been a rape victim, I hope nothing I've said offends you, it certainly wasn't meant to. And I hope those who hurt you receive justice)

OP posts:
OmnipotentQueenOfTheUniverse · 10/01/2015 14:03

I only read the beginning of that piece.

It's silly.

She was asleep. He stuck his cock in her without asking. OBVIOUSLY that is not in any way OK.

The only way it's OK is if you have agreed beforehand that's the plan (they hadn't) or if you're in an established relationship where that is something you both say you like (they weren't).

Jesus.

HouseWhereNobodyLives · 10/01/2015 14:09

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

YonicSleighdriver · 10/01/2015 14:15

House, I think the writer is not perfect.

She does say throughout that it is rape. She is trying to explore rape culture. I think she is right to do so.

Weathervain · 10/01/2015 14:16

I just hate the way men are portrayed as rapists, including my husband and brother! So all rapists are men therefore all men are rapists? I know I can trust my family member just like I can trust my sister not to steal from me. What a shit world this is when we trust no one!

Just because you offer a daughter or wife a lift you are conveying the message 'if I don't take you, you will be raped?' In fact they could be mugged, murdered or just get cold and wet because it's raining! But let's all just let our DDs walk home alone because we may be accused of scaremongering.

But if (as people are saying here) all men are rapists, aren't you being the ones being the Taliban by saying they are unsafe to venture out of the house because all men they see are rapists?

Talk about contradictory arguments.

Feel free to accuse me of victim blaming, but please copy one single sentence that says so.

YonicSleighdriver · 10/01/2015 14:17

It goes back to the CE case also - why does he believe that as a footballer, he can make the assumption that all young, attractive women are in a state of consent around him? And why do so many misguided souls agree?

Because, rape culture.

YonicSleighdriver · 10/01/2015 14:18

"So all rapists are men therefore all men are rapists?"

To use your own words, please copy one single sentence on here that says this?

GallicIsCharlie · 10/01/2015 14:19

The idea that it is quite normal and understandable when on coming across a pissed young women to sexually violate her is just really fucked-up, quite frankly.

Yes, isn't it?!

Just revisiting that dark pathway for a minute:
Dark paths do not assault people;
Criminals who fancy assaulting someone do.
Those criminals sometimes choose dark pathways for their assaults.
If everyone avoided dark pathways, the criminals would not stop assaulting people:
They would just choose other locations for their crimes.
Many other criminals already choose different locations for their assaults.
They are all over the place.
Therefore, avoiding dark paths does nothing to reduce your probability of being assaulted.
Because it is not the pathways that cause the assaults.

CaptainHolt · 10/01/2015 14:20

Women don't want to be escorted anywhere by a male family member FFS. I can't believe that needs saying.

Incidentally, if there aren't any rapists then why are you getting your brother to take you home?

Can you point out where anyone has said that 'All men are rapists'? I have RTFT but I haven't seen it and I could do with the context before I implode.

PhaedraIsMyName · 10/01/2015 14:20

If anyone is saying all men are rapists it's posts like yours suggesting we need to be accompanied by male family members if we're out in the evening.

HouseWhereNobodyLives · 10/01/2015 14:22

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

PhaedraIsMyName · 10/01/2015 14:22

Sorry my post was replying to weathervain

HouseWhereNobodyLives · 10/01/2015 14:24

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

CaptainHolt · 10/01/2015 14:27

Feel free to accuse me of victim blaming, but please copy one single sentence that says so.

"I can choose to not put myself in a situation where I might become a victim"

You're welcome.

TheOnlyWayThrough · 10/01/2015 14:27

Cailindana if I remember your scenario correctly (it was back a bit and I couldn't reply to every response I'm afraid!) I'd say: Vulnerable? Yes I suppose, but not in any way you could have predicted, and only in so much as we are all always vulnerable to a multitude of various things. I do understand that the same goes for rape, I do.

House, yes he clearly wasn't 'nice' at all if he started having sex with her whilst sleeping. I got the impression that the 'responsibility' the writer was referring to was for society in general towards rape attitudes, not the woman in question for being raped. It seemed like it meant to be highlighting the idea that men's misconceptions regarding consent can lead to rape, not that flirting can lead to rape.

OP posts:
OmnipotentQueenOfTheUniverse · 10/01/2015 14:27

I only read the beginning of that article and it was a bit he's a bit confused bless him.

Fact is he stuck his cock in a woman who was asleep and who he had no prior sexual context with to know for a fact that this would be welcome.

That is really not a confusing situation for crying out loud. The fact that it is being presented as such is disturbing to me. I would have thought that men would know full well not to stick their cocks in sleeping women. Now we are told that this is something "nice" men don't understand? You see, I don't believe that.

More likely is that he knew full well it was not the right thing to do but didn't expect her to make a fuss about it. Which most women wouldn't.

So the real point is that some (many?) "nice" men will still do things they know are wrong because they feel, well hell why not, and she probably won't say too much about it.

cailindana · 10/01/2015 14:28

Weather you are the one who is saying women shouldn't walk alone for fear of lurking rapists. You are the one saying that women aren't safe on the street.
We are saying not all men are rapists, but the ones who are mostly know their victims, so there is really no point in fearing strangers on the street, just live your life.

YonicSleighdriver · 10/01/2015 14:28

Yeah, I do see what you mean, House.

I believe her when she says he didn't think what he did was rape until it was explained to him. Then he did realise. Ignorance is no defence of course.

This is a problem with CE - if he had said "I did not realise what I did was rape but now I do, it is right I was prosecuted and now I know better" or words to that effect, that would've been massively better than the alternative.

HouseWhereNobodyLives · 10/01/2015 14:30

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

YonicSleighdriver · 10/01/2015 14:31

Hmm, maybe Omni.

Nonetheless, there is a problem that some men do not understand what consent is. It is not women's responsibility though, anymore than it is, say, young people's responsibility if some older people are more likely to disregard drink driving laws because they were less widely enforced in the 60s and 70s.

OmnipotentQueenOfTheUniverse · 10/01/2015 14:32

Blokes who get caught out with this sort of thing always put on an innocent face and say "but how was I to know poor ickle me".

Reminds me of talk about "poor sexual etiquette" and people raping "by accident".

Men are not stupid FGS. In these cases they are in a situation where they can stick their cock in a sleeping woman who has not indicated that will be welcome, or not. If they decide to do it, they do it knowing that it is wrong, but knowing that the woman is unlikely to do much about it, and that society will be understanding of his actions. And then when the women kick off, or society says WTF, they get all confused. Not because they didn't know it was wrong, but because they have been called on their actions when they didn't expect to be.

HouseWhereNobodyLives · 10/01/2015 14:33

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

GallicIsCharlie · 10/01/2015 14:33

"Most rapists don't realise they are rapists."

1,882 men were asked if they'd ever committed rape. They all said no.
Then they were asked the following questions:

1] Have you ever been in a situation where you tried, but for various reasons did not succeed, in having sexual intercourse with an adult by using or threatening to use physical force (twisting their arm, holding them down, etc.) if they did not cooperate?

2] Have you ever had sexual intercourse with someone, even though they did not want to, because they were too intoxicated (on alcohol or drugs) to resist your sexual advances (e.g., removing their clothes)?

3] Have you ever had sexual intercourse with an adult when they didn't want to because you used or threatened to use physical force (twisting their arm; holding them down, etc.) if they didn't cooperate?

4] Have you ever had oral sex with an adult when they didn't want to because you used or threatened to use physical force (twisting their arm; holding them down, etc.) if they didn't cooperate?

120 of them said yes.
When asked to count the number of times they remembered doing this,
the total came to 483.
That's 483 rapes & attempted rapes, committed by 120 men who 'know' they are not rapists.

It is important to note that 1,762 of the men had never attempted or committed rape.

This shows it is [a] ridiculous to talk as if men can't help raping, and [b] true that rapists often don't see their actions as rape.

What we need to do is educate ALL men about respect, boundaries, and consent. Then the 6% who are multiple rapists won't make their 'mistakes', and our society won't allow them to claim ignorance.

Jessica85 · 10/01/2015 14:33

My biggest problem with that article is that it suggests that many people might think it's okay to penetrate a sleeping woman.

I'm always awake when DP and I have sex. Maybe we've been doing it wrong?!

GallicIsCharlie · 10/01/2015 14:34

(they'll say they just 'took advantage' or something)

I only realised about a month ago that this phrase actually means 'sexually assaulted'.

OmnipotentQueenOfTheUniverse · 10/01/2015 14:34

Like a toddler caught in the chocolate cupboard. Exactly the same reaction.

Wasn't me
Snoffair
Didn't know
Why are you being so mean to me
Waaaaaah flounce

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