AIBU with this perspective on rape?

[TheOnlyWayThrough]

Rape is vile and awful and always the rapists fault in its entirety. Of course it is, you'd be mad to disagree.

The bit I don't really get is the argument that women shouldn't need to take any responsibly for keeping themselves safe. The idea that women (and sometimes men) wouldn't be vulnerable if rapists didn't rape.

Well of course that is true, but that would be in an ideal world. And this certainly isn't one, so the point is moot surely? That principle could be applied to all walks of life where some people do inexplicably nasty things to others... which is basically ALL THE TIME. Some things are obviously worse than others, and rape is up there with the most obscene. It's not the only awful thing though.

You don't hear people saying that elderly people shouldn't need to have chains on their door for their own protection. And if someone forced their way into the home of someone elderly without a chain, I wouldn't for a second blame them/say they were asking for it. It's just that that a chain might have kept them a bit safer; that's why we have them.

A friend of mine was mugged walking home from work one night recently (it was about midnight). She wasn't hurt, but was of course shaken up and felt horribly violated. She won't be walking home again like that as it clearly isn't as safe as she thought. And I think that's sensible. But I don't feel that makes me a 'mugging apologist'. My friend wasn't at fault for the scummy thing that happened to her, but she DID put herself in a situation which wasn't very safe... and she got stung.

When I was burgled whilst sleeping I wished I'd have put the burglar alarm on as it might have stopped it from happening. I put it on every night now, rather than saying "I shouldn't have to; it's the burglars that shouldn't burgle".

Why is saying that it's a good idea to keep ourselves safe somehow misconstrued as mitigating rape in a way that doesn't seem to with other crimes? It's not intended that way, and it's not judging or blaming anyone who has been raped. It doesn't matter if you were drunk, half-naked, whatever - the crime was the rape and the victim did nothing wrong.

So is it unreasonable to think that in some situations, some ladies have put themselves in situations which weren't at all sensible and made them prey to scummy behaviour? And to think that that isn't the same thing as saying they are to blame or deserving of rape in any way?

(Just to add, this isn't about the Ched Evans case any more than any other particular case. And to anyone who has been a rape victim, I hope nothing I've said offends you, it certainly wasn't meant to. And I hope those who hurt you receive justice)

Only, my point with the motorbike scenario is that by not wearing a helmet a motorcyclist does put herself at risk of injury on the road. So she is vulnerable. But if she is stabbed that has absolutely nothing to do with her lack of helmet, so linking the two makes no sense.
Similarly, if a woman is drunk she is in danger of falling, getting lost etc but if someone rapes her that has nothing to do with her being drunk, so linking the two makes no sense.
Being drunk makes me no more vulnerable to rape than not wearing a helmet makes me vulnerable to stabbing. I cannot mitigate against other people's decisions and actions.

Yy Gallic.

Jessica, many people do think it's ok. There have been several threads from people whose partners have penetrated them in their sleep and there are always a few posters who mock the very idea that this is rape.

Gallic, but those men are just making excuses to themselves for behaviour that is vile. The fact that they don't call it rape doesn't mean they don't know it was wrong. How do you 'educate' people that have so little respect and think physical force is ok?

Because, House, lots of people feel behaviour is justified to get what they want sexually/romantically. See... Any movie where man pursues woman even though woman uninterested.

Gallick that is really shocking !

Only, a recent PP mentioned that rapists genuinely believe everyone does it. They didn't call it rape because they didn't feel they'd done anything particularly wrong.

The study highlighted how popular media, mainstream porn, comedians, and joshing down the pub all conspire to reassure rapists that it is normal. It's a rare man who'll go "Hang on, that's not amusing, that's rape!" So the six percent merrily bowl along, thinking every man uses coercion to have sex.

By the way, the '120 men' study I've quoted above was done on a college campus. Few lifetime studies have been done, but they all found approx 6% of men to be rapists - six out of every hundred.

In the lifetime studies, their average admitted rape count rises from 4 to 16.

Yonic, so they think that sleeping in the same bed is consent to sex?! Bloody hell.

On second thoughts, I am clearly thick. A couple of years ago my exDP was annoyed that I shared my bed with a friend after a night out. He seemed upset in case the friend might have 'tried it on'. Until just now it didn't occur to me that 'tried it on' was the same as 'stick his penis in you while you were asleep'.

Weather. You say: "It's ridiculous to say we can't advise women to exercise personal safety because it will be construed as victim blaming.

"Just as ridiculous as saying you have as much likelihood of being attacked in a crowded street as in a dark alley. I was attacked (luckily not badly hurt) in a dark alley and I am certain it could only have happened there."

I am very sorry you were attacked in an alleyway. But I was mugged in broad daylight, on a busy street, by a bastard who put a knife to my throat. I was heavily pregnant at the time. He demanded money and I gave it to him. I thought he was going to kill me and my unborn son.

Was that attack my fault for being in that street at that time? For being heavily pregnant and therefore more vulnerable? No, it was not. Just as your being attacked was not your fault. It was the fault of those who attacked us, and nobody else.

I appreciate the discussion everyone, very thought provoking (and IMO healthy and necessary to be able to talk these things through rather than just berate each others opinions). So big thanks to those that took the time to explain their feelings and provide statistics.

Now I really MUST get off MN and go and play with my kids!

Yy House.

And I have been told by a guy I was fooling around with (and really fancied) "if you got any hotter, I would have to rape you"

He meant it as a compliment. Apparently.

Yonic ... urgh!!

But it is a consequence of rape culture.

Rape has as much to do with sex as punching does with caressing, but there are still ongoing misapprehensions that it's about men losing control around the sexy/easy women.

That is so troubling yonic

It is, isn't it? But I didn't find it massively so at the time, I just thought "oh, that's a bit off" - like it was a bad compliment, "your hair is as black as a bin bag" kind of thing.

Yonic

It only occurred to me recently that many, even 'classic', books were referring to rape when 'he was ravishing her' - there is this pernicious assumption that no means maybe, and maybe yes, isn't there?

Discussing rape myths should really not be limited by our own individual experiences and what choices we make as individuals, but what society recognises as rape and what excuses are made by rapists about what it was they did.

There is an assumption of a 'right' to sex which I find really v dubious and disturbing.

There used to be a campaign that no means no however that in itself distorts peoples perception of rape ie if she doesn't make it forcefully clear that she is saying no for whatever reason then it's not rape. People need to understand that unless someone with capacity and free of threats and coercion says yes it is rape. The whole rape culture needs turning on it's head and part of that is stopping telling women wrongly how not to be raped and telling men instead not to do it.

And what does "prick tease" mean other than "woman who enjoys flirting but has boundaries that I find inconvenient to my desires"?

You mean you were concerned he might rape you.

"Boundaries might become blurred" is terribly euphemistic really there.

I've been alone with men while drunk loads of times btw and none of them raped me.

I would have missed out on a lot of really good times if I had been concerned that men are likely to rape.

I'm more - well you can't tell who will and who won't - you can't avoid ever being alone with men ever - it's down to luck whether you end up in a situation where a rapist has an opportunity to rape you - so best just to get on with life and have a good time.