AIBU with this perspective on rape?

[TheOnlyWayThrough]

Rape is vile and awful and always the rapists fault in its entirety. Of course it is, you'd be mad to disagree.

The bit I don't really get is the argument that women shouldn't need to take any responsibly for keeping themselves safe. The idea that women (and sometimes men) wouldn't be vulnerable if rapists didn't rape.

Well of course that is true, but that would be in an ideal world. And this certainly isn't one, so the point is moot surely? That principle could be applied to all walks of life where some people do inexplicably nasty things to others... which is basically ALL THE TIME. Some things are obviously worse than others, and rape is up there with the most obscene. It's not the only awful thing though.

You don't hear people saying that elderly people shouldn't need to have chains on their door for their own protection. And if someone forced their way into the home of someone elderly without a chain, I wouldn't for a second blame them/say they were asking for it. It's just that that a chain might have kept them a bit safer; that's why we have them.

A friend of mine was mugged walking home from work one night recently (it was about midnight). She wasn't hurt, but was of course shaken up and felt horribly violated. She won't be walking home again like that as it clearly isn't as safe as she thought. And I think that's sensible. But I don't feel that makes me a 'mugging apologist'. My friend wasn't at fault for the scummy thing that happened to her, but she DID put herself in a situation which wasn't very safe... and she got stung.

When I was burgled whilst sleeping I wished I'd have put the burglar alarm on as it might have stopped it from happening. I put it on every night now, rather than saying "I shouldn't have to; it's the burglars that shouldn't burgle".

Why is saying that it's a good idea to keep ourselves safe somehow misconstrued as mitigating rape in a way that doesn't seem to with other crimes? It's not intended that way, and it's not judging or blaming anyone who has been raped. It doesn't matter if you were drunk, half-naked, whatever - the crime was the rape and the victim did nothing wrong.

So is it unreasonable to think that in some situations, some ladies have put themselves in situations which weren't at all sensible and made them prey to scummy behaviour? And to think that that isn't the same thing as saying they are to blame or deserving of rape in any way?

(Just to add, this isn't about the Ched Evans case any more than any other particular case. And to anyone who has been a rape victim, I hope nothing I've said offends you, it certainly wasn't meant to. And I hope those who hurt you receive justice)

[sigh] so many mistakes in there..

Framing personal safety around the victims behaviour rather than the perpetrator increases the likelihood a woman won't report her rape and plays into the hands of rapists as they know they are far more likely to get away with it.

If I was drunk and mugged, I'd report it. If I was drunk and raped I wouldn't. That is a perceptual thing just as much as a reality thing of the differing treatment I would receive. Threads like this just add to the perceptions (and reality) of women that their rapes won't be taken seriously and even if they are and someone is charged, the hell they will have to go through to get a conviction and beyond (Ched Evans victim is a perfect example).

Another thing as well. On these threads people are very quick to say 'but men get raped too' yet all of the personal safety around rape is directed at women. Men are allowed to continue about their business unfettered by societal restrictions, despite the fact they are the main perpetrators of violence by far.

Oh Captain, that's awful, they clearly did think a man's bodily autonomy worth something.

And if she had done it to keep the money (FFS) why would she have reported it?

Weathervain, the person giving the "safe lift home" might rape you. Someone in the friends you are staying with might rape you. It's possibly easier for them to do so as they can get indoors with you more readily. Various women have been raped by a male friend who walked them home.

Whether or not rape occurs in a home is entirely relevant to personal safety when all the personal safety messages are directed outside the home. In fact it is relevant anyway. And I can't understand why you'd think otherwise Weathervain. Statistically, women are in more danger from the men they know than from strangers. Where are the messages to tell women not to live with men if they are that dangerous and uncontrollable?

Personal safety has nothing to do with victim blaming or taking the responsibility for a rapists behaviour.

I cannot control a rapists decision to rape.

I can choose to not put myself in a situation where I might become a victim as I did walking down a dark alley.

Personal safety advice is the same for women and men. Be wary if you're in an isolated situation with a stranger or with someone who makes you feel nervous. Be wary if approaching a group of people (especially men) who seem overly cocky or aggressive. Be wary of drunks. Cover your exits if there's a stranger in your space. Learn self-defence.

All the specific anti-rape advice is pointless. Its only effect is to intimidate women. These discussions always make me feel like people desperately want to deny the fact that rape is a constant threat no matter what we do - but the statistics show we're always at risk. One in four women is raped during her lifetime, and the real number is probably much higher. A couple of pages back, a poster says she's only handled ONE stranger rape in the past twelve months. Focusing on the 'stranger in the street' is a red herring; it keeps our focus away from the stark fact that the stranger is not the real danger.

If this leaves you feeling scared and angry, it should. It should focus your thoughts on the men who have good reason to believe they'll get away with it. The majority of rapes are perpetrated by serial offenders (the best estimate says each rapist has 16 victims on average.) They get away with it because society kids itself women can control whether rapists will rape them. Each time we buy into this lie, we collude with rapists.

Why would personal safety not cover being in the home? Are you suddenly safe because you are there? Can you lock up your vagina in your bedside drawer? Can you control a rapist any better in your own home?

Think not!

And where did I say safety messages shouldn't be directed to women at risk of or subject to rape in the home?

You can be raped in theory by any man at any age, so that is a reason we ban safety advice.

I would arrange for my brother or husband to collect me from a night out and I can guarantee that neither would rape me!

Ridiculous argument against not advising personal safety

You are more likely to be a victim in your own home Weathervain. Perhaps better not stay there!

Not serious btw. Just trying to show the ridiculousness of messages trying to restrict women's movements and not tackling men's actions.

Safety advice that doesn't work and puts the responsibility on the women to prevent rapists, stops them coming forward and perpetuates rape myths, yes should be banned.

Statistically, a husband is probably more likely to be your rapist than a stranger (though I am not saying YOUR husband is)

What if your husband was busy , or it was before you met him? What if your brother got a job in another county? Would you just stop going out?

I would arrange for my brother or husband to collect me from a night out and I can guarantee that neither would rape me!

I don't have statistics to back it up but I'm sure someone else will but you are more at risk of being raped by your husband than you are by a stranger.

So when I was jumped on in a dark alley, instead of struggling and screaming, I should just have laid back and let it happen because I was a helpless victim?

Bloody ridiculous to say that learning self defence and staying safe makes me scared to leave my house at night? BS! I go out the same as I always did only I am more savvy! Women are not the little mice you seem to make them out to be.

How insulting to my husband and brother to say they are potential rapists. Are your husbands, fathers and brothers all rapists then?

In fact how insulting to the vast majority of decent men out there. You are the only ones making women afraid to leave their houses with your scaremongering.

I don't have a husband or a brother ...so do I stay home ... reminds me of the Taliban!

"How insulting to my husband and brother to say they are potential rapists. Are your husbands, fathers and brothers all rapists then?"

Can I respectfully suggest you read the thread and then come back?

my uncle was a rapist yes - I was 4 and he was looking after me

Actually IMHO I think telling our daughters that they should be careful not to be raped, as if shirt skirts or drunkeness could provoke a rapist is far more insulting to men.

My safety advice to my DD will be the same advice as my advice to DS1.
Ds2 is a different matter as the world does casually accept insults, aggression and hostility aimed at people with LDs.

Weather, your posts are non-sequiturs. I'm sorry that some bastard jumped you in a dark alley. I'm sorry that the bastard was a rapist not 'just' a mugger.

It's understandable that you now avoid dark alleys. But the alley didn't cause your assault, neither did you cause it by being there. If no women ever walked along any dark alleys, the rapists would hang out somewhere else.

Nobody's said don't learn self-defence, as far I know. I recommended it for both sexes.

I have been a drunk young woman in a short skirt in many city centres across the UK in my time. I've lived in dodgy areas at uni, walked home alone late at night after waitressing jobs, nights out etc and generally behaved as though I was invincible as a lot of us do when we are young. Have never been raped though as I never encountered a rapist.

These repeated reminders that most rapes are committed by known men continue to miss the point. We all know that FFS!

If by avoiding potentially vulnerable activities I can reduce the chance of being raped by 10 or 20%, that is a choice I will personally make. It is NOT victim blaming.

Here you go weather. No one is insulting YOUR husband or brother but that doesn't mean that your safety advice can be generalised:

Myth Women shouldn't go out alone, especially at night. Women are most likely to be raped outside, by strangers in dark alleyways, and this is the best way for a woman to protect herself.

Fact Women are often advised to avoid sexual violence by never walking alone at night. But in fact, only around 10% of rapes are committed by 'strangers'. Around 90% of rapes are committed by known men; someone who the survivor has previously known, trusted, often even loved. People are raped in their homes, their workplaces and other settings where they have previously felt safe. Sometimes, the myth that rape is most commonly perpetrated by strangers can make the majority of survivors, who have been raped or sexually assaulted by someone they know, even less likely to report to the police or even confide in someone close about their experiences, for fear of not being believed, out of a sense of shame or self-blame, and/or because they have mixed feelings about getting the perpetrator 'into trouble'. This myth can also control women's movements and restrict their rights and freedom.

And so Gallic. Because it was not my fault I should continue to venture down a dark alley?

As I said and which was ignored women in DV situations also need advice.

The argument that any brother, husband, friend can be a rapist, in fact any man can be a rapist is far more likely to make women afraid of all men rather than dark alleys.

Ok. What safety advice would you give to a woman? Remembering of course I have only quoted according to my experience.

Fwiw. The dark alley jumper has nothing from me except contempt. I am not afraid but I take precautions. If all women are afraid of all men then the bastards who do rape have won!

Weathervain, I don't think anyone on here would suggest you go down a dark alley.

We're talking of the victim blaming that is pervasive in society when it comes to rape - and it comes from telling women they have a 'responsibility' to protect themselves to rape. And that word - responsibility - was used in the OP, I believe.

Any husband, brother, friend could be a rapist - don't you agree? Sadly we know which until it's too late. Rapists have family and friends too. They are not fanged loners in dark alleyways - they walk among us.