AIBU with this perspective on rape?

[TheOnlyWayThrough]

Rape is vile and awful and always the rapists fault in its entirety. Of course it is, you'd be mad to disagree.

The bit I don't really get is the argument that women shouldn't need to take any responsibly for keeping themselves safe. The idea that women (and sometimes men) wouldn't be vulnerable if rapists didn't rape.

Well of course that is true, but that would be in an ideal world. And this certainly isn't one, so the point is moot surely? That principle could be applied to all walks of life where some people do inexplicably nasty things to others... which is basically ALL THE TIME. Some things are obviously worse than others, and rape is up there with the most obscene. It's not the only awful thing though.

You don't hear people saying that elderly people shouldn't need to have chains on their door for their own protection. And if someone forced their way into the home of someone elderly without a chain, I wouldn't for a second blame them/say they were asking for it. It's just that that a chain might have kept them a bit safer; that's why we have them.

A friend of mine was mugged walking home from work one night recently (it was about midnight). She wasn't hurt, but was of course shaken up and felt horribly violated. She won't be walking home again like that as it clearly isn't as safe as she thought. And I think that's sensible. But I don't feel that makes me a 'mugging apologist'. My friend wasn't at fault for the scummy thing that happened to her, but she DID put herself in a situation which wasn't very safe... and she got stung.

When I was burgled whilst sleeping I wished I'd have put the burglar alarm on as it might have stopped it from happening. I put it on every night now, rather than saying "I shouldn't have to; it's the burglars that shouldn't burgle".

Why is saying that it's a good idea to keep ourselves safe somehow misconstrued as mitigating rape in a way that doesn't seem to with other crimes? It's not intended that way, and it's not judging or blaming anyone who has been raped. It doesn't matter if you were drunk, half-naked, whatever - the crime was the rape and the victim did nothing wrong.

So is it unreasonable to think that in some situations, some ladies have put themselves in situations which weren't at all sensible and made them prey to scummy behaviour? And to think that that isn't the same thing as saying they are to blame or deserving of rape in any way?

(Just to add, this isn't about the Ched Evans case any more than any other particular case. And to anyone who has been a rape victim, I hope nothing I've said offends you, it certainly wasn't meant to. And I hope those who hurt you receive justice)

*don't know which

I am not sure mn should let this thread stay. The initial post - why is it still up? Why give oxygen to the op?

Ok. What safety advice would you give to a woman?

I posted the advice I offer to women AND men (identical) about an hour ago.
Personal safety advice is the same for women and men. Be wary if you're in an isolated situation with a stranger or with someone who makes you feel nervous. Be wary if approaching a group of people (especially men) who seem overly cocky or aggressive. Be wary of drunks. Cover your exits if there's a stranger in your space. Learn self-defence.

FTR, I was assaulted by a knife-wielding loon in a dark alley. I still use dark alleys - it was my personal choice to overcome this irrational fear, so I did. Avoiding alleys in the future is also a valid choice. What isn't valid is to advise all women to avoid all alleys, because this implies that dark alleys cause assaults.

Weathervain, I don't think anyone on here would suggest you go down a dark alley

but equally no one would tell you you shouldn't or couldn't or blame you if you did and something bad happened

that's the point

Snapple, because the counter-arguments have to be repeated until everybody who ever googles "how to avoid rape" has read them!

It is hopelessly naive to think that DV victims could be given a bit of crime prevention advice to stop their partners raping them.

I agree that girls/women use their judgement, weigh up risks and risky behaviour and make good choices that minimise the risk of harm. We all do that all the time in life- driving, health, crossing roads etc.

However, I don't think in any way, ever, a woman should be blamed for contributing to herbeing raped or sexually assaulted. Tha is a choice a man has made. She may have been safer walking down a different street or not being drunk but he made the choice to rape/assault her.

Why can't a woman rape a man? If a woman tied up a man and used a sex toy for anal penetration would that not be rape? (Ps this is something I would never do obvs)

Rape is penetration with a penis, maddening.

What you describe is sexual assault, and carries the same sentencing structure as rape, I believe.

What we chose to do as individuals, is all up to us.
What has happened or not happened to us in entirely unique to us.

Blanket advice what a woman (or man) should or should not do will never work or be valid and yes, can lead to victim blaming.

Of course it is utterly understandably that somebody attacked in a dark alley then avoids them, equally I understand why somebody might say 'stuff this, it was not the alley that attacked me, I am not limiting my life by avoiding them forever more'. Individual choice, innit?

And of course every man has the potential to be a rapist in that he has the 'tools' - whether is in fact is a rapist is again v personal to each individual.

I love my DH, father, brother, DSs, male friends etc and I have so far never encountered a rapist even in my younger, more risk-taking days. Do I think that was because I never had the legs to wear short skirts?
No.

I think this thread should stand. I get the impression that the OP was well-meant (and was something I may have posted a while ago) and the more dodgy assertions have been challenged really well. IMO discussion like this makes people think about their own entrenched thinking.

And if a man did that to a woman it would also be sexual assault, not rape.

I agree the OP was well meant and she has been back to explain she learnt something.

maddening There have been cases of adult women and under-age boys - one was a teacher and she went to prison for it. And rightly,it was exploitative.

But it is not called rape; it is called sexual contact with children.

I would arrange for my brother or husband to collect me from a night out and I can guarantee that neither would rape me!

As someone else said that smacks of the Taliban

If I was drunk and mugged, I'd report it. If I was drunk and raped I wouldn't

I cannot recall ever reading any suggestions or hearing any one comment that a mugging victim of either sex who was drunk had been irresponsible or had provoked their attack. On the contrary I've heard people express disgust at the mugger taking advantage of someone in that situation.

Phaedra Was I being Taliban when I drove my then-teenage son's female friends home after parties?

Pacific I think we may have different ideas about which ones were the 'dodgy assertions'.

I don't think of it as a 'responsibility' of ours to try to keep safe but, given these ugly things do occur and there are some very unbalanced individuals out there, I consider it more a duty of care to ourselves to not walk down dark paths alone at night.

I absolutely feel we SHOULD be able to safely walk where we choose at any time but reality is not that way, it will always be a gamble not worth taking!

By the same token, I would not want my son to walk alone in a place where frequent muggings take place, even though they should not, they DO, I would want him to have some awareness and avoid these areas and keep himself safe!

Although, if there WAS to be an incident of crime in either example, I would only consider the criminal responsible for it, NOT the victim!

Seeing as my question was ignored, I'll ask it again: If I ride a motorcycle without a helmet and get stabbed by a stranger while stopped at lights, have I put myself in a vulnerable situation?

Andrew, if you shamed or scared those girls into accepting lifts by implying they'd get raped if they walked, then yes that would be Talibanesque behaviour. Giving lifts is kind, forcing people to accept lifts out of fear is not. BTW I know two women who were raped by men who gave them lifts.

Was I being Taliban when I drove my then-teenage son's female friends home after parties?

Oh don't be ridiculous. You know that's not what I mean. It's only being helpful. What I'm objecting to is the insidious suggestion it was a rape prevention measure.

callindana My approach was a casual Care for a lift, [name]? and if the answer had been No thanks, that would have been the end of it. But it never was. So, no, I don't think I was being Taliban, but I am grateful to you for pointing out the distinction which I had not seen and should have done.

Weather, if you'd walked down the busy street rather than the dark alley, perhaps a drunk driver would have mounted the pavement and struck you with their car, or you'd've been caught up in a brawl outside a pub.

Who can say.

"But how do people know that regular cabs are a better choice than unlicensed cabs if they aren't told?"

Was reading earlier and saw this.

Is it actually a fact that licenced cabs are safer than unlicenced ones?

Isn't the push for people not to use them actually out of a desire to not have funds going into unlicenced / illegal / black economy?

I've taken plenty of illegal cabs and they were all fine. The two dodgy experiences were in "licenced" ones. Meanwhile John Warboys was a black cab driver and because of this police didn't believe at least one of his victims because "a black cab driver wouldn't do that".

This stuff is all nonsense and guesswork isn't it. Isn't it? Rapes don't get reported. The man suspected of being the worst serial rapist in UK in some decades drove a black cab.

Isn't a lot of this based on preconceptions of what sort of people are "dodgy" and what sort are not, rather than reality?

Phaedra The dangers of rape and mugging were at the back of my mind, of course they were. See my last post for my approach. If you think I was being insidious, well, I can live with your opinion.