AIBU with this perspective on rape?

[TheOnlyWayThrough]

Rape is vile and awful and always the rapists fault in its entirety. Of course it is, you'd be mad to disagree.

The bit I don't really get is the argument that women shouldn't need to take any responsibly for keeping themselves safe. The idea that women (and sometimes men) wouldn't be vulnerable if rapists didn't rape.

Well of course that is true, but that would be in an ideal world. And this certainly isn't one, so the point is moot surely? That principle could be applied to all walks of life where some people do inexplicably nasty things to others... which is basically ALL THE TIME. Some things are obviously worse than others, and rape is up there with the most obscene. It's not the only awful thing though.

You don't hear people saying that elderly people shouldn't need to have chains on their door for their own protection. And if someone forced their way into the home of someone elderly without a chain, I wouldn't for a second blame them/say they were asking for it. It's just that that a chain might have kept them a bit safer; that's why we have them.

A friend of mine was mugged walking home from work one night recently (it was about midnight). She wasn't hurt, but was of course shaken up and felt horribly violated. She won't be walking home again like that as it clearly isn't as safe as she thought. And I think that's sensible. But I don't feel that makes me a 'mugging apologist'. My friend wasn't at fault for the scummy thing that happened to her, but she DID put herself in a situation which wasn't very safe... and she got stung.

When I was burgled whilst sleeping I wished I'd have put the burglar alarm on as it might have stopped it from happening. I put it on every night now, rather than saying "I shouldn't have to; it's the burglars that shouldn't burgle".

Why is saying that it's a good idea to keep ourselves safe somehow misconstrued as mitigating rape in a way that doesn't seem to with other crimes? It's not intended that way, and it's not judging or blaming anyone who has been raped. It doesn't matter if you were drunk, half-naked, whatever - the crime was the rape and the victim did nothing wrong.

So is it unreasonable to think that in some situations, some ladies have put themselves in situations which weren't at all sensible and made them prey to scummy behaviour? And to think that that isn't the same thing as saying they are to blame or deserving of rape in any way?

(Just to add, this isn't about the Ched Evans case any more than any other particular case. And to anyone who has been a rape victim, I hope nothing I've said offends you, it certainly wasn't meant to. And I hope those who hurt you receive justice)

Katty, by your logic, by going into her own house a woman is 'putting herself in a vulnerable situation' as that's where millions of rapes happen. So should women camp on the street to avoid being vulnerable? Oh, I forgot, women aren't allowed on the street because they're vulnerable there too. Where do you advise women to go in order not to be vulnerable? Space?

Riding in a car without a belt, being in boat without a lifejacket, motorcycling without a helmet are all examples of putting yourself in a vulnerable situation, because you are choosing to engage in an activity with a high chance of an accident without protective gear. Note the word accident. A belt will not protect me against a violent fellow driver who wants to punch me. Rape is not an accident. It is a deliberate act carried out by someone because they choose to do so. Nothing will protect me against other people's choices.

No I didn't mean that, I'm just talking about everyone being responsible for their own actions, so being drunk in the street on your own in the middle if the night, isn't a great idea and it makes you vulnerable to all sorts of thing, hypothermia, mugging, being hit by a car, stumbling into the road, maybe rape. If course rape in relationships is different and I'm not talking about that I was referring to the drunk out and about argument that is going on here. I clearly said that any attacks are the attackers sole fault and responsibility. It feels like some people are saying women should take responsibility for their own actions in terms of not being out and about on their own while leg less but if they are then raped, their actions were perfectly sensible. To be clear, I'm separating the 2 events. I think women and all humankind are responsible for their behaviour so if you make yourself vulnerable you are responsible for THAT. BUT if someone rapes you they are 100% guilty and responsible for that attack in it's entirety. I'm not sure what's wrong with saying that.

So if I'm drunk at 3 am on the street only I am responsible for that. Who else could be? If I get raped, the rapist is responsible for that. I just don't see how it can be any other way.

If I ride a motorcycle without a helmet and someone stabs me while I'm stopped at lights, have I put myself in a vulnerable situation?

No it doesn't make you more vulnerable to rape. There is no correlation there at all. Losing your possessions, hypothermia, hurting yourself, yes. Being raped, no. Because that requires intervention from someone else. And you have no responsibility or control over their behaviour. 75% of rapes are planned by the rapist. Alcohol is a massive factor in rape though - by the rapist. Maybe we should suggest men shouldn't get drunk? But that would just be ridiculous wouldn't it? Putting limitations on men's behaviour. They are entitled to be in public spaces and engage in legal practices without recourse. Oh wait...

You are most vulnerable to rape with someone you know, in your own home.

You are saying getting drunk at 3 am leads to rape though kitty. And that is taking responsibility away from the rapist.

Crikey everyone, I wasn't expecting such a lot of responses, nor for it to get so heated.

To those that have shared their story of rape and how it has affected them, thank you. I certainly haven't read anything that makes me think it was your fault, but then how could I (because it never could be your fault if you were the victim)?

For what it's worth (which I know isn't much) this has made me change my view a bit. Having read so many personal stories, and having learnt that most rapes are from a known attacker, it's sounding like the current conversations about personal safety aren't helpful if they're making rape victims (many of whom were in a seemingly 'safe' environment anyway) feel as if society is blaming them.

So my question to those with a more personal experience is this: how can we have any discourse about personal safety (which I think should perhaps be in a wider context of violent crime in general, not specifically pertaining to rape) without making those who are attacked feel worse?

For instance I've seen lots of campaigns regarding not taking unlicensed minicabs (which I must say I'd always thought, yes, that's sensible). Would this therefore be deemed victim-blaming for those that sadly were violated in unlicensed minicabs, or positive because it alerts those that may not have considered it dangerous?

Where is the balance between educating that there are people who want to harm others out there, and not harping on about it so much that victims feels like they 'should have seen it coming'?

(BTW, unlicensed cabs is the sort of 'not sensible' situation I was thinking of in my OP, not wearing a skirt, being in a bar, or any other ridiculousness. And I will reiterate, I don't think that those who were attacked in such minicabs were to blame, their rapists were.)

Just realised I said without making those who are attacked feel worse on my third paragraph. What I mean is BLAMED, not worse.

The discussion around personal safety should be framed around the perpetrators of the crimes actions and preventing that rather than the victims behaviour.

For example if every woman in the country stopped drinking, it would not stop rape or even have little effect reducing it (as testified by those countries where alcohol is banned).

Only, can I remind you that John Worboys was a licensed cab driver? He was convicted of 12 rapes and suspected of more.

As I've said before- if we spent half as much time bringing our sons up not to be rapists as we spend on teaching our daughters how to avoid being raped.............

By suggesting that what we do (or don't do) somehow makes a man rape us, is infantalising a man to a state where he cannot control his own actions.

scallopsrgreat I don't mean tell women not to drink in the name of personal safety! And as you say, most rapes would still happen in that scenario anyway.

But how do people know that regular cabs are a better choice than unlicensed cabs if they aren't told?

a situation is only vulnerable if it has a rapist in it

"This". As they say.

Haven't RTFT but why bother. I should be able to do what I want when I want and not get raped.

Blows my fucking mind that people DON'T GET THIS. And makes me angry. Can you tell.

Personally I despise TFL #homesafeselfie campaign. You'd have thought they'd have learned from those awful posters they had a few years ago. We shouldn't be telling women that it's such an achievement to get home without being raped that they should celebrate with a cheerful picture of themselves snuggled up in bed. We shouldn't be handing another stick to rape apologists to beat us with.

It adds 'did you not check out the cab driver' to the already enormous list of questions we can ask to establish at exactly which point the victim made the mistake that led to her rape.

It's also a slap in the face to John Worboys victims and all the other women who have been raped by a licenced taxi driver, or by the 'friend' they accepted a lift from as that's safer than a cab.

My friend was orally raped by a licence taxi driver on the way home from work. We worked in a club. They booked taxis for us and put us into groups. If you were the last drop off, you were given the cash to pay the driver. She was the last drop off, he raped her, she went to the police but it didn't go anywhere because she didn't pay him. They said it wasn't rape, it was 'payment in kind'.

No one is saying that general safety advice shouldn't be given we are saying that the advice with regards to protecting yourself against rape shouldn't be given as it doesn't work, it is based on all the rape myths not the reality. it isn't wise to use an unlicensed cab for many reasons so why focus on rape and target it to women?

OP - the content of your opening post is understandable (although not correct). Women are socialised to believe that they can and should take responsibility to prevent rape. Victim blaming in cases of rape is rife in society, not least because we live in male dominated society that tends to believe men over women, and excuse their actions - because women are just ^silly temptresses who get drunk and flash their boobs on the street."

(^Taken directly from a post on this thread)

But rape is a deliberate act, and if you start to go down the route of "shouldn't get drunk, shouldn't walk home alone etc" because you have a responsibility to keep yourself from being raped, then you pretty soon have to come to the conclusion that women can no longer do anything in case they are raped: go out, stay home, go on a date, go to work, get married, sleep in the same bed as their partner, be in the same room as male relatives or male friends, walk home, walk the dog, take a bus, take a taxi.

Rape is an abuse of power by a man who is a rapist - because they know they can probably get away with it, (most are never even reported), because they know that society often excuses them for it by putting at least some of the responsibility on the victim.

I heard that police believe John Worbuoys had over 100 victims before he was caught.

Fucking hell, Captain.

Did they charge your colleague with theft as well, as presumably they thought she'd done it so she could keep the money?

Rape is so prevalent because so few people think a woman's bodily autonomy is worth anything.

Men are far far more likely than women to get attacked on the street. Where are all the posters targeted at them, where is all their 'safety advice'?

Did they charge your colleague with theft as well, as presumably they thought she'd done it so she could keep the money?

They laughed at her in a rather laddish way, and change the system so you got a voucher instead of cash. They joked that we could all do that and it would save a fortune. I remember people joking that I should do it because I was the second last drop in my cab, the last being a man, and a man could never be expected to do that. She became the girls who sucked off cabbies for a tenner and she left. She put on a very brave face. It wouldn't have been rape back then, it was before the law was changed to cover oral penetration.

"By suggesting that what we do (or don't do) somehow makes a man rape us, is infantalising a man to a state where he cannot control his own actions."

Yes yes - this exactly!

It makes me beyond furious that some women accept the permits that testosterone is an excuse for a man choosing to rape.
It's a choice. It's always a choice. And it's bloody insulting to all the men out there for whom a drunk woman is just a drunk woman not a soft target .

The idea that a can be forced into a situation where his penis becomes out of control because a woman has a shirt skirt on or is pissed is ridiculous.
That women repeat this bollockd is shameful.

It's ridiculous to say we can't advise women to exercise personal safety because it will be construed as victim blaming.

Just as ridiculous as saying you have as much likelihood of being attacked in a crowded street as in a dark alley. I was attacked (luckily not badly hurt) in a dark alley and I am certain it could only have happened there.

Being drunk also switches off your personal safety radar and whereas there's nothing wrong with drinking too much it's sensible to make sure you have a safe lift home or stay with friends.

Whether or not rapes happen in the family environment or not is irrelevant to personal safety. Why link the two?

Are people seriously saying we can't advise on personal safety because it is playing into the hands of any rapists out there?