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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

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AIBU with this perspective on rape?

846 replies

TheOnlyWayThrough · 09/01/2015 11:24

Rape is vile and awful and always the rapists fault in its entirety. Of course it is, you'd be mad to disagree.

The bit I don't really get is the argument that women shouldn't need to take any responsibly for keeping themselves safe. The idea that women (and sometimes men) wouldn't be vulnerable if rapists didn't rape.

Well of course that is true, but that would be in an ideal world. And this certainly isn't one, so the point is moot surely? That principle could be applied to all walks of life where some people do inexplicably nasty things to others... which is basically ALL THE TIME. Some things are obviously worse than others, and rape is up there with the most obscene. It's not the only awful thing though.

You don't hear people saying that elderly people shouldn't need to have chains on their door for their own protection. And if someone forced their way into the home of someone elderly without a chain, I wouldn't for a second blame them/say they were asking for it. It's just that that a chain might have kept them a bit safer; that's why we have them.

A friend of mine was mugged walking home from work one night recently (it was about midnight). She wasn't hurt, but was of course shaken up and felt horribly violated. She won't be walking home again like that as it clearly isn't as safe as she thought. And I think that's sensible. But I don't feel that makes me a 'mugging apologist'. My friend wasn't at fault for the scummy thing that happened to her, but she DID put herself in a situation which wasn't very safe... and she got stung.

When I was burgled whilst sleeping I wished I'd have put the burglar alarm on as it might have stopped it from happening. I put it on every night now, rather than saying "I shouldn't have to; it's the burglars that shouldn't burgle".

Why is saying that it's a good idea to keep ourselves safe somehow misconstrued as mitigating rape in a way that doesn't seem to with other crimes? It's not intended that way, and it's not judging or blaming anyone who has been raped. It doesn't matter if you were drunk, half-naked, whatever - the crime was the rape and the victim did nothing wrong.

So is it unreasonable to think that in some situations, some ladies have put themselves in situations which weren't at all sensible and made them prey to scummy behaviour? And to think that that isn't the same thing as saying they are to blame or deserving of rape in any way?

(Just to add, this isn't about the Ched Evans case any more than any other particular case. And to anyone who has been a rape victim, I hope nothing I've said offends you, it certainly wasn't meant to. And I hope those who hurt you receive justice)

OP posts:
PhaedraIsMyName · 10/01/2015 00:51

I am going to have to step off this thread. I can't believe people still peddle this kind of shit in the year 2015.

I haven't "rtft" but the above was at the end of page 1 and really no more need be said.

RojaGato · 10/01/2015 00:52

Because as a society we be better to focus on reducing the number of rapes that happen to all women, men and children.

The measures you mention may help a particular individual to avoid being a target of rape. But they won't stop the rapist moving on to another person who is vulnerable for some other reason as a target.

Better to have a culture where taking advantage of someone sexually in any way is seen as totally unacceptable.

CaptainHolt · 10/01/2015 00:52

You do know that women, sadly, have been being raped a hell of a lot longer than they have been wearing short skirts, don't you. Not that 'covering up' makes a jot of difference.

AIBU with this perspective on rape?
Blackout234 · 10/01/2015 00:53

I was raped at 13 on the floor of the computer room in my own home by a family member I was wearing my dads jacket, stretchy jogging bottoms, trainers and a loose T shirt.
Why is my experience more "Valid"than the 20 somethings who get raped on a night out? Although as research points out, its only 10% Of rapes that happen at the hands of strangers.
I lock my car when I leave it.
I have a passcode on my phone.
I lock my house when I leave it.
My vagina is not an IT. my vagina is not an object, my vagina is part of me and if I don't give you permission to touch it, no matter what i'm doing at the time then DON'T BLOODY TOUCH IT. Its simple as that! Rapists aren't 2 year olds in sweet shops who can't help themselves rapists like to exert power and control over their victims and then know they can continue to control when their victims will be living in fear for at least a couple of years, even more so when the only cases covered by the press suggest that there is a large number of false reports (Even though i believe its something like 0-4% correct me if otherwise).
The system needs changing and society needs to wake up.
Victims are treated appallingly

MaMaMarmoset · 10/01/2015 00:55

roja exactly. Take care of yourself just means let the rapist rape someone else. Who hasn't taken "responsibility".

PhaedraIsMyName · 10/01/2015 00:55

John maybe we could teach men to think 'oh there's a woman I don't respect ...but I am not going to rape her' ...that may help

Or even " well she's got a nice pair on her but I'm still not going to rape her"

Blackout234 · 10/01/2015 00:59

Oh and by the way, when i sat in crown court a year later I was told I had
"provoked the attack by doing x x x and x" and more or less that I had asked for it. There was no doubt sexual contact had occurred (DNA) but there was a doubt that it had been raped, which can be the case for most women. I don't know who the hell thinks a 13 year old can consent to sex with an 18 year old family member (Whos related too closely for it to have been legal even if i had consented and been of age) But hey ho. Sadly I have vowed to myself that if I am ever raped again, no matter how badly I was hurt I will never trust in the system to bring justice. The system fails young women then less young women report then more are failed its a vicious cycle.

MaMaMarmoset · 10/01/2015 01:05

Flowers *blackout

PhaedraIsMyName · 10/01/2015 01:10

I'm saying both are crimes, why are people expected to take personal responsibility for some crimes (mugging) but not others (rape)

What utter bollocks. Who says you have to take "personal responsibility not to get mugged"? Who even thinks that?

We don't blame a man who is drunk who gets his Rolex watch stolen . In fact any normal, decent person would think if anything it's a worse crime if the victim is drunk not that the victim is in some way to blame.

Shattered2014 · 10/01/2015 01:15

YANBU and your observations make perfect sense in real life. However this is the ultra Liberal world of Mumsnet -and so I'm afraid you will just be shouted down!

MaMaMarmoset · 10/01/2015 01:17

If you spend 10 seconds reading the thread you'll see why in the "real world" that isn't true at all.

Feel free to remain ignorant if it suits you though

YonicSleighdriver · 10/01/2015 01:19

Blackout, so sorry Flowers

GallicIsCharlie · 10/01/2015 01:25

What incredibly powerful posts, Blackout. Thank you. I'm so very sorry you were treated that way by the system which is supposed to enact justice.

GallicIsCharlie · 10/01/2015 01:27

Those of you who like to compare rape with mugging might like to look at this little story :)
s3-ec.buzzfed.com/static/enhanced/terminal05/2012/2/21/16/enhanced-buzz-31568-1329861546-16.jpg

PhaedraIsMyName · 10/01/2015 01:27

Of course a ons isn't rape, but it could lead to rape and has done in a couple of cases i know.

What a brilliant example of a non sequitur.

YonicSleighdriver · 10/01/2015 01:33

Yy phaedra

GallicIsCharlie · 10/01/2015 01:36

Of course a violin lesson isn't rape, but it could lead to rape and has done in one case I know.

Of course grooming a horse isn't rape, but it could lead to rape and has done in three cases I know.

Of course getting a licensed taxi isn't rape, but it could lead to rape and has done in many cases I know.

Of course travelling to work on a crowded train isn't rape, but it could lead to rape and has done in one case I know.

Of course being at home with a family member isn't rape, but it could lead to rape and has done in millions of cases.

... etc.

YonicSleighdriver · 10/01/2015 01:39

Of course a camping trip with your boyfriend isn't rape, but of course it could lead to rape and has done in one case I know.

YonicSleighdriver · 10/01/2015 01:41

Of course going to a party isn't rape, but it could lead to rape and has done in one case I know

Of course, hosting a dinner party for your colleagues isn't rape, but it could lead to rape and has done in one case I know.

Karasea · 10/01/2015 01:47

Blackout- so sorry:( and thankyou for sharing because if the fuckers who think you safeguard your vagina by avoiding alcohol, short skirts or nights out don't get it after that kind of post they really just aren't capable.
And you know I walk alone at night all the time, always have, I do shifts and like to walk home. Why the fuck shouldn't I.
I was assaulted whilst busy playing cowboy and Indians, later whilst in school and again whilst wearing nhs overalls. And I have enjoyed a ton of drunken nights and plenty of nights with previously unkown men- all great experiences.
I really want my kids to be safe and know that there is nothing I can teach than that guarantees this.

tanukiton · 10/01/2015 07:13

STOP victim blaming!!!
drunk DON’T rape
naked DON’T rape
fancies you but doesn’t want sex (yet) DON’T rape
jogging DON’T rape
coming back from the shops at 3pm wearing jeans DON’T rape
at home and opens the door DON’T rape
DON’T rape ARGHH

The correct response to someone telling you they were raped Is support.

I am going to have to leave this thread ! I really thought people were moving forward on this.....

kattykinski · 10/01/2015 07:31

I think the way I see it is that a woman who puts herself in a vulnerable situation knowingly, has to take responsibility for putting herself in that vulnerable situation. And that's where her responsibility ends. Any attack that happens to her thereafter is entirely the responsibility of the perpetrator. Is that fair?

kattykinski · 10/01/2015 07:43

And I would like to say thank you for the points made in this thread and those who have shared their stories. It has made me realise that I was raped when much younger, not by some peoples definition but by the law's. My then boyfriend refused to stop when I asked him to. I said afterwards that I felt like id been raped but I didn't realise I had.

scallopsrgreat · 10/01/2015 08:36

How do you define a 'vulnerable situation' when it comes rape? Being at home with your husband? Grooming a horse? Getting into a licensed taxi?

Women are NOT responsible for the behaviour of the men who rape them. Far too often women are deemed responsible for men's behaviour or for putting themselves in that situation (whatever that mythical situation may be).

They are only in a 'vulnerable situation' if they are with a rapist. And that is a CHOICE that the man makes. When you see someone drunk on the street do you think oh I'll rape them? No it wouldn't cross your mind. And that's the difference. It is a conscious, deliberate choice by men to rape. Saying women should take any responsibility for the situation immediately reduces the responsibility with the man for the choice he made.

Hakluyt · 10/01/2015 08:38

A situation is only vulnerable if it has a rapist in it......

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