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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

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AIBU with this perspective on rape?

846 replies

TheOnlyWayThrough · 09/01/2015 11:24

Rape is vile and awful and always the rapists fault in its entirety. Of course it is, you'd be mad to disagree.

The bit I don't really get is the argument that women shouldn't need to take any responsibly for keeping themselves safe. The idea that women (and sometimes men) wouldn't be vulnerable if rapists didn't rape.

Well of course that is true, but that would be in an ideal world. And this certainly isn't one, so the point is moot surely? That principle could be applied to all walks of life where some people do inexplicably nasty things to others... which is basically ALL THE TIME. Some things are obviously worse than others, and rape is up there with the most obscene. It's not the only awful thing though.

You don't hear people saying that elderly people shouldn't need to have chains on their door for their own protection. And if someone forced their way into the home of someone elderly without a chain, I wouldn't for a second blame them/say they were asking for it. It's just that that a chain might have kept them a bit safer; that's why we have them.

A friend of mine was mugged walking home from work one night recently (it was about midnight). She wasn't hurt, but was of course shaken up and felt horribly violated. She won't be walking home again like that as it clearly isn't as safe as she thought. And I think that's sensible. But I don't feel that makes me a 'mugging apologist'. My friend wasn't at fault for the scummy thing that happened to her, but she DID put herself in a situation which wasn't very safe... and she got stung.

When I was burgled whilst sleeping I wished I'd have put the burglar alarm on as it might have stopped it from happening. I put it on every night now, rather than saying "I shouldn't have to; it's the burglars that shouldn't burgle".

Why is saying that it's a good idea to keep ourselves safe somehow misconstrued as mitigating rape in a way that doesn't seem to with other crimes? It's not intended that way, and it's not judging or blaming anyone who has been raped. It doesn't matter if you were drunk, half-naked, whatever - the crime was the rape and the victim did nothing wrong.

So is it unreasonable to think that in some situations, some ladies have put themselves in situations which weren't at all sensible and made them prey to scummy behaviour? And to think that that isn't the same thing as saying they are to blame or deserving of rape in any way?

(Just to add, this isn't about the Ched Evans case any more than any other particular case. And to anyone who has been a rape victim, I hope nothing I've said offends you, it certainly wasn't meant to. And I hope those who hurt you receive justice)

OP posts:
JohnQuig · 10/01/2015 00:22

CaptainHolt

E.g., don't go lifting your top and showing your tits in the middle of town (I've seen this happen lots), because even if you're not raped, it gives the impression you're "easy" and thus you won't get respect. I'd also say stick with groups and generally just be more aware of your surroundings, and DON'T GET SO DRUNK YOU HAVEN'T A CLUE WHAT'S GOING ON (FOR BOTH GENDERS!)

Men need to be taught more about consent I agree. That no means no, mo matter what. However it's not as black/white as some people make out - what if both parties are equally drunk and aren't aware of their faculties? It might not occur to two people really, really paralytic drunk that they need to consent to something.

YonicSleighdriver · 10/01/2015 00:23

"it gives the impression you're "easy" and thus you won't get respect."

What does respect mean, in this instance?

JohnQuig · 10/01/2015 00:25

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

ghostyslovesheep · 10/01/2015 00:26

god fucking forbid I seem 'easy' and men don't respect me Hmm

John the 1950's called - they want their views back

In the real world we don't equate rape with a lack of 'respect' from men - I couldn't give a tiny rats wank if men respect me - doesn't give them a green light to fuck me without consent

YonicSleighdriver · 10/01/2015 00:27

What is the optimum number of sexual partners for a woman to have to ensure she is "respected"?

What about a man?

CaptainHolt · 10/01/2015 00:28

don't go lifting your top and showing your tits in the middle of town (I've seen this happen lots), because even if you're not raped, it gives the impression you're "easy" and thus you won't get respect.

Even if you're not raped??????????

Are you for fucking real??

Incidentally, respect from who? Why am I supposed to give a fuck?

Why shouldn't I be 'easy'? Isn't that just a way of saying nice girls don't like sex, and if you're not a nice girl then you're asking for it? Why are women the gatekeepers?

ghostyslovesheep · 10/01/2015 00:28

John maybe we could teach men to think 'oh there's a woman I don't respect ...but I am not going to rape her' ...that may help

MaMaMarmoset · 10/01/2015 00:29

I'm confused. What if I am easy? Surely the bloke I have sex with is also easy? Why is it a problem for me?

I've seen far more men walk around shirtless and waving their dicks about than women. Are they easy too?

CaptainHolt · 10/01/2015 00:30

Personally I don't want to have non consensual sex with a woman for whom I've no 'respect'.

Perhaps I'm built wrong, or perhaps I'm just not a horrible human being with no sense of boundaries.

MaMaMarmoset · 10/01/2015 00:32

The thing is John, you've got the time on your hands to fully argue that women should be less easy and respect themselves..Do you not think your time might be better spent convincing men that woman aren't pieces of meat to fuck? Since you're all about equal rights and all.

GallicIsCharlie · 10/01/2015 00:33

people will talk about how easy you are behind your back

Oh, dear, that would be awful - would it? Why?

Why shouldn't a woman be promiscuous, if she chooses?

Have you ever thought that, by characterising women who like casual sex as 'easy', you are saying women should make it difficult for men to have sex with them?

If you expect them to be 'difficult', how do you know whether they're consenting?

PiperIsTerrysChoclateOrange · 10/01/2015 00:33

John, I think with your views on this matter then I think that you could be a potential rapist.

I do not think you can quite crasp the fact that a women should give consent. Most of my friends are MALE. when I have be drunk in the past then they have made sure i was home safe.

I tend to be a Lovely Drunk and very loveable and flirty ( to my shame to my friends) not once have they ever taken advantage of me, they have had many opportunities but my friends are not rapist.

trufflehunterthebadger · 10/01/2015 00:33

Yonic, thanks but i am a small cog in the wheel. The heroes are the women who refuse to be cowed and still manage to testify, going through their ordeal dozens of times to try to get justice.

I have seen all sorts of cases, both my own casework and colleagues. The common factor in almost every single case is that the women knew their attackers.

My last stranger 1 case (stranger 1 rape is a complete stranger, stranger 2 is someone the victim has just met) was in court in spring 2014.

GallicIsCharlie · 10/01/2015 00:33

Personally I don't want to have non consensual sex with a woman for whom I've no 'respect'.

Well said, Holt.

beautyfades · 10/01/2015 00:34

How the fk has walkin down the road running the risk of getting raped!?

JohnQuig · 10/01/2015 00:37

No, I wasn't suggesting that being easy = rape. AT ALL.

I was just saying women need to have more self-respect. Men too. We're becoming a vastly sexualised society and people are getting their bits out in the street on a night out because they're so drunk they don't know what they're doing.

Why is it a problem to say we all need to cover up a bit more and sexualise ourselves less?

TheOnlyOliviaMumsnet · 10/01/2015 00:39

Another link to We believe you

MaMaMarmoset · 10/01/2015 00:40

Because you don't get to decide how another person expresses their sexuality?

Is that difficult to understand?

GallicIsCharlie · 10/01/2015 00:41

Why is it a problem to say we all need to cover up a bit more and sexualise ourselves less?

You do know there are vast parts of the world where people wear very little, and they don't go around raping one another all the time?

GallicIsCharlie · 10/01/2015 00:42

I haven't used this word for around 20 years, JohnQuig - you are a prude.

Prudishness is dangerous to women, for reasons your posts have amply demonstrated.

MaMaMarmoset · 10/01/2015 00:44

Hope you've signed john since you're so concerned about the sexualisation of our society.

www.change.org/p/david-dinsmore-take-the-bare-boobs-out-of-the-sun-nomorepage3

trufflehunterthebadger · 10/01/2015 00:44

And indeed countries where women are covered in flowing saris yet still get raped

Clothing, behaviour, location whatever. The one thing that all rape victims have in common is this misfortune of meeting a man to whom consent is nothing.

beautyfades · 10/01/2015 00:46

John you've got to be takin the piss?

trufflehunterthebadger · 10/01/2015 00:48

Also, john you seem to be ignorant on the main psychological driver of men who rape.

Rape is not about sex, lust, desire, being "overcome" with desire for the drunk girl who flashed her boobs

Rape is about control

GuiltyAsAGirlCanBe · 10/01/2015 00:50

By your logic, a burglar who breaks into a house with a flimsy lock and no burglar alarm is less guilty of burglary and therefore not a criminal as the house owners are giving him mixed messages.

Rape is a crime, whatever the circumstances.