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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

See all MNHQ comments on this thread

AIBU with this perspective on rape?

846 replies

TheOnlyWayThrough · 09/01/2015 11:24

Rape is vile and awful and always the rapists fault in its entirety. Of course it is, you'd be mad to disagree.

The bit I don't really get is the argument that women shouldn't need to take any responsibly for keeping themselves safe. The idea that women (and sometimes men) wouldn't be vulnerable if rapists didn't rape.

Well of course that is true, but that would be in an ideal world. And this certainly isn't one, so the point is moot surely? That principle could be applied to all walks of life where some people do inexplicably nasty things to others... which is basically ALL THE TIME. Some things are obviously worse than others, and rape is up there with the most obscene. It's not the only awful thing though.

You don't hear people saying that elderly people shouldn't need to have chains on their door for their own protection. And if someone forced their way into the home of someone elderly without a chain, I wouldn't for a second blame them/say they were asking for it. It's just that that a chain might have kept them a bit safer; that's why we have them.

A friend of mine was mugged walking home from work one night recently (it was about midnight). She wasn't hurt, but was of course shaken up and felt horribly violated. She won't be walking home again like that as it clearly isn't as safe as she thought. And I think that's sensible. But I don't feel that makes me a 'mugging apologist'. My friend wasn't at fault for the scummy thing that happened to her, but she DID put herself in a situation which wasn't very safe... and she got stung.

When I was burgled whilst sleeping I wished I'd have put the burglar alarm on as it might have stopped it from happening. I put it on every night now, rather than saying "I shouldn't have to; it's the burglars that shouldn't burgle".

Why is saying that it's a good idea to keep ourselves safe somehow misconstrued as mitigating rape in a way that doesn't seem to with other crimes? It's not intended that way, and it's not judging or blaming anyone who has been raped. It doesn't matter if you were drunk, half-naked, whatever - the crime was the rape and the victim did nothing wrong.

So is it unreasonable to think that in some situations, some ladies have put themselves in situations which weren't at all sensible and made them prey to scummy behaviour? And to think that that isn't the same thing as saying they are to blame or deserving of rape in any way?

(Just to add, this isn't about the Ched Evans case any more than any other particular case. And to anyone who has been a rape victim, I hope nothing I've said offends you, it certainly wasn't meant to. And I hope those who hurt you receive justice)

OP posts:
MaMaMarmoset · 09/01/2015 23:01

So if I say fuck it. I really want to be able to enjoy my life and not be scare to walk down an alley way if it gets me home quicker (or is the only way home). Or if I like mini skirts or a couple of drinks. If I say I am willing to do those things because there is actually a very small chance of stranger rape happening to me and I'd like to just get on with life as normal.... Exactly how much "responsibility" should I take for being raped?

MaMaMarmoset · 09/01/2015 23:02

Op if someone you knew had been killed in a road traffic accident by a drunk driver would you say they had been partly responsible for getting in a car? We know cars aren't entirely safe and there is always a risk of being killed.

maddy68 · 09/01/2015 23:17

Mama. That largely depends on whether the victim had been also driving under the influence, or dangerously , or in a non risk worthy car. Liars of factors which could have minimised the outcome.

JohnQuig · 09/01/2015 23:37

MaMaMarmoset

Not the same though is it. Walking down dark alleys, not taking precautions and generally being blackout drunk are obviously going to attract people wanting to take advantage (not just rape, but muggers and con artists!)

It's not victim blaming to suggest it won't hurt for women to be a bit more aware of their surroundings and for them to try to keep their faculties.

Jessica85 · 09/01/2015 23:41

But Maddy, your scenario of two drink drivers crashing into each other is not analogous. In that case, you are talking about two people committing the exact same criminal act at the same time. That analogy would only work if the rape case involved a man and woman who were both too drunk to consent.

The idea of 'keep yourself safe' is more like telling people not to drive at all in case they get hit by a drunk driver.

JohnQuig · 09/01/2015 23:44

Oh, also, I'm leaving this here.

www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/crime/10934144/Oxford-Union-rape-victim-knew-her-claim-was-false.html

Why was he arrested and named/shamed before any investigating had took place? Because in the case of rape, it seems to be guilty until proven innocent. If we equalise the treatment of genders during these reports (e.g. don't automatically assume the girl is telling the truth, as is most often the case) stuff like this wouldn't happen.

This poor lad has had his reputation damaged.

Jessica85 · 09/01/2015 23:47

John, I could only accept that it can't hurt if I could honestly answer 'no' to all of the questions I posed in my post at 21.42. If you can answer 'no' to any of those questions then that is your opinion. I however, can't and so I believe that telling women to 'keep themselves safe' most certainly can hurt.

Blistory · 09/01/2015 23:47

The thread is about the risk women face with regards to rape.

False allegations of rape have fuck all to do with it, John.

MaMaMarmoset · 09/01/2015 23:49

Getting in any car takes on risk. Because you have no control over the actions of other drivers.

trufflehunterthebadger · 09/01/2015 23:51

I work with victims of rape, sexual and domestic violence. I have seen too many of these cases to number in the 8 years i've been in my current role.

I have only had one stranger rape case. They are extremely uncommon, to the extent that they are dealt with by my force by the major crime team (what you would think of as the murder squad)

95% of defendants on my cases are partner, familial, colleagues and friends.

JohnQuig · 09/01/2015 23:54

truffle

Anecdotal evidence.

Blistory · 09/01/2015 23:57

John, why don't you just tell us your agenda and be done with it ? Save us the bother of outing you as a MRA please.

MaMaMarmoset · 09/01/2015 23:58

Anecdotal evidence backed up by actual data however.

Jessica85 · 09/01/2015 23:59

John, what evidence is your opinion based on?

YonicSleighdriver · 10/01/2015 00:00

8 years of experience is anecdotal evidence but one case in Oxford is perfectly fine to cite if it supports your agenda?

WeSeeYou.

MaMaMarmoset · 10/01/2015 00:03

We know 90 percent of rapes are by acquaintances. So 10% aren't and many of those will be by "innocent" victims the kind kind that got raped by a taxi driver that they hailed instead of walking home, or had someone break in to their home (rather than they risk goinng out). Or they were abused by someone taking advantage of a situation (police officer for example).

So keeping that in mind, is it reasonable to spend half your life worried you might get raped by boogeymen?

JohnQuig · 10/01/2015 00:08

I'm not an MRA at all. I believe in equal rights for everyone, and that's why I don't think education about sexual violence should be about "teaching men not to rape," it should be about teaching guys about consent etc, but also about teaching women to have more respect for themselves and telling them how to protect themselves.

Things like I've said upthread are not victim blaming, it's common fucking sense.

YonicSleighdriver · 10/01/2015 00:12

"teaching women to have more respect for themselves"

How would this be manifested?

CaptainHolt · 10/01/2015 00:12

Why was he arrested and named/shamed before any investigating had took place? Because in the case of rape, it seems to be guilty until proven innocent

What are you on about? Rape isn't singled out for special treatment. Anonymity isn't granted to the accused in any crime.

trufflehunterthebadger · 10/01/2015 00:14

Dear John
Maybe you would like to offer some rape prevention advice to some of my current victims ?

One was 18 months old, two under 8. Two others aged between 8 and 12 when their grandfather decided to rape them over an 8 year period. Or maybe the 14 year old held down and gang raped ?

Rape prevention advice just minimises the offence. "Well she was walking home alone at 2am in a short skirt so it wasn't really that bad that i knocked to the floor is an army takedown manouevre, strangled her and tried to rape her. Not my fault at all"

YonicSleighdriver · 10/01/2015 00:16

Truffle Flowers you are a superhero for doing what you do.

Yy Captain.

CaptainHolt · 10/01/2015 00:16

"teaching women to have more respect for themselves"

How would this be manifested?

I'd like to know this too. Not going out? Not staying in? Not having sex? Screen locking you vagina?

Jessica85 · 10/01/2015 00:18

John, common fucking sense is not the same thing as true.

For instance, it is common fucking sense that every day the sun moves through the sky and the earth doesn't move. It's common fucking sense that the earth is flat, otherwise we'd

Jessica85 · 10/01/2015 00:20

Posting fail!

Common fucking sense is just what some people say so they don't have to justify their opinions with evidence or proper reasoning.

YonicSleighdriver · 10/01/2015 00:21

Oh look, the student journo who wrote the article the telegraph quoted from was sacked and the article removed from their website.

www.theguardian.com/education/2014/sep/25/oxford-editor-removed-after-blaming-rape-victim

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