AIBU with this perspective on rape?

[TheOnlyWayThrough]

Rape is vile and awful and always the rapists fault in its entirety. Of course it is, you'd be mad to disagree.

The bit I don't really get is the argument that women shouldn't need to take any responsibly for keeping themselves safe. The idea that women (and sometimes men) wouldn't be vulnerable if rapists didn't rape.

Well of course that is true, but that would be in an ideal world. And this certainly isn't one, so the point is moot surely? That principle could be applied to all walks of life where some people do inexplicably nasty things to others... which is basically ALL THE TIME. Some things are obviously worse than others, and rape is up there with the most obscene. It's not the only awful thing though.

You don't hear people saying that elderly people shouldn't need to have chains on their door for their own protection. And if someone forced their way into the home of someone elderly without a chain, I wouldn't for a second blame them/say they were asking for it. It's just that that a chain might have kept them a bit safer; that's why we have them.

A friend of mine was mugged walking home from work one night recently (it was about midnight). She wasn't hurt, but was of course shaken up and felt horribly violated. She won't be walking home again like that as it clearly isn't as safe as she thought. And I think that's sensible. But I don't feel that makes me a 'mugging apologist'. My friend wasn't at fault for the scummy thing that happened to her, but she DID put herself in a situation which wasn't very safe... and she got stung.

When I was burgled whilst sleeping I wished I'd have put the burglar alarm on as it might have stopped it from happening. I put it on every night now, rather than saying "I shouldn't have to; it's the burglars that shouldn't burgle".

Why is saying that it's a good idea to keep ourselves safe somehow misconstrued as mitigating rape in a way that doesn't seem to with other crimes? It's not intended that way, and it's not judging or blaming anyone who has been raped. It doesn't matter if you were drunk, half-naked, whatever - the crime was the rape and the victim did nothing wrong.

So is it unreasonable to think that in some situations, some ladies have put themselves in situations which weren't at all sensible and made them prey to scummy behaviour? And to think that that isn't the same thing as saying they are to blame or deserving of rape in any way?

(Just to add, this isn't about the Ched Evans case any more than any other particular case. And to anyone who has been a rape victim, I hope nothing I've said offends you, it certainly wasn't meant to. And I hope those who hurt you receive justice)

The thing is, that if you actually believe that, the single most significant thing that a woman can do to protect herself from rape is not to associate with men. A world in which women take reasonable precautions to protect themselves from rape isn't one where they don't get drunk at parties; it's one where they don't invite men to their parties, or have consensual sex with men, or friendly relationships with men.

Falling, I think that most people appreciate that getting drunk puts you at greater risk of being a victim of many crimes.

The questions are:

Do you think that telling women to avoid getting drunk will prevent rape?
Do you think that telling women to avoid getting drunk will misrepresent the relative risks of rape (ie you are far more likely to be raped by your partner, but don't worry, at least your actions make you a bit less like to be raped by a stranger)?
Do you not think that by telling women to take some responsibility and avoid being raped by not getting drunk you are perpetuating the myth that drunk women are a teeny bit responsible for their rape?
Do you not think that far more effort needs to be out into explain what consent to sex actually means?

Maggie, rapists get away with it (and may then go on to rape someone else) because all of the advice about 'keep yourself safe' implies that the victim does take some responsibility. This prevents people from reporting, prevents reports from being taken seriously, prevents cases being taken up by the CPS and prevents juries from convicting. All of which lead to more rapists on our streets.

OK Jessica - does the same apply to mugging then? Like in the example I gave when I was mugged, should I have taken some responsibility for that?

As a woman you cant keep yourself safe tho purely by avoiding night time walks and strangers, for example:
Where i am from, a french 15 year old girl over here on an exchange trip took the dog of the family she stayed with for a walk in a 'safe' nice area along a busy main road and was never seen again. You would think that is 'safe' to walk in broad daylight in a nice area in daylight, that has constant busy traffic as well.

I got followed further along that same main road 10 years later again in broad daylight by a weird guy who kept pestering me, because by then the French girl had been forgotten and my mother used to say start walking, i will come get you. My 14 year old sister got pestered then groped in a public library. How in those cases would we or that poor french girl have 'kept ourselves safe'? Regarding walking alone at night, as another poster pointed out, men can walk alone at night and not be afraid of rape. ~I walk to the supermarket at night because its brightly lit all the way with constant footfall of people to and from it going past my flat. I dont see you point at all , to me its a blame the victim line i would expect from an older generation or a misogynist.

Maggie, to be absolutely clear - I don't think the victim of crime should ever be considered in any way responsible for the crime. If I've been unclear, then I apologise. Can you point out where I've said that so I can correct it?

one of my biggest issues with 'safety advice' is that is sticks to stereotyped ideas of rape - dark alley ways, lonely streets, drunk women

most women are raped somewhere they consider safe (like their home) by someone they know (like their husbands or fathers)

so why feed the myth that it's strangers and night time that pose the biggest risk

second issue - it seems to be about control womens behaviour in shared spaces - don't go out alone, don't drink, don't behave in ways we don't like ...or else (is the subtle subtext)

how about men not raping?

Jessica you didn't say it but I did. I do feel I was somewhat responsible for the mugging I experienced at age 18 due to sheer stupidity of going up to badduns in a car and getting my wallet out where they could reach it. And I was very drunk. Yes they were the baddies but I was stupid to go up to the car, I really believe that I played a part in my own misfortune. I mean, I was young and naïve and would never do that now.

So I'm just wondering why rape crime is so different that the victim can never take any personal responsibility. Genuine question.

House

I am not saying it is exactly the same, or that there are mugging myths the same as rape myths. that's missing my point.

I'm saying both are crimes, why are people expected to take personal responsibility for some crimes (mugging) but not others (rape).

Just because rape (in English law) only affects women I don't understand why that means I can't take personal responsibility to make it less likely. Yes I know most rapes happen by a person known to the woman but I can still protect myself against the possibility of stranger rape can't I?

I'm beginning to think that, according to this thread, I can't as it would be 'antifeminist'

Maggie, I firmly believe that the only person responsible for a crime is the person who committed that act. Victims are simply not responsible for the crime.

You are be responsible for your own actions. You are not responsible for the actions of others. If your actions mean that others view you as an easy target for crime, you are still not responsible for their actions/crime.

House, I'm so sorry for what you've been though

Please know that not everyone blames the victim. There are millions of people around who know that the only person responsible for rape is the rapist. No ifs, no buts, literally only the rapist x

Yes, that's right House. Men can be raped by men, but not women (in English law). My bad.

Jessica you didn't say it but I did. I do feel I was somewhat responsible for the mugging I experienced at age 18 due to sheer stupidity of going up to badduns in a car and getting my wallet out where they could reach it. And I was very drunk. Yes they were the baddies but I was stupid to go up to the car, I really believe that I played a part in my own misfortune. I mean, I was young and naïve and would never do that now.So I'm just wondering why rape crime is so different that the victim can never take any personal responsibility. Genuine question

It would never have occurred to me you were in any way responsible. I think it is unfortunate that in comparing the two situations that you' basically just implied that a drunk woman who gets raped is bloody stupid though.

The rapist is 100% responsible for his behaviour. The victim's choice of clothes, tattoos, alcohol, clubs etc. is irrelevant to the crime.

Instead of continually trying to restrict women's behaviour, we should invest more resources in educating men how to behave towards women & girls and to respect their rights.
This should also be an integral part of citizenship education in schools, to help reduce the number of future rapists and domestic abusers.

This thread makes me so sad.
There is a few small positive steps happening but god they are small. I believe in some states in the USA a a rape victim cant be asked what they were wearing. (because it is irrelevant).

It should be the same in the UK.

I also think there are a lot of questions that should be off limits.

HouseWhereNobodyLives *