AIBU with this perspective on rape?

[TheOnlyWayThrough]

Rape is vile and awful and always the rapists fault in its entirety. Of course it is, you'd be mad to disagree.

The bit I don't really get is the argument that women shouldn't need to take any responsibly for keeping themselves safe. The idea that women (and sometimes men) wouldn't be vulnerable if rapists didn't rape.

Well of course that is true, but that would be in an ideal world. And this certainly isn't one, so the point is moot surely? That principle could be applied to all walks of life where some people do inexplicably nasty things to others... which is basically ALL THE TIME. Some things are obviously worse than others, and rape is up there with the most obscene. It's not the only awful thing though.

You don't hear people saying that elderly people shouldn't need to have chains on their door for their own protection. And if someone forced their way into the home of someone elderly without a chain, I wouldn't for a second blame them/say they were asking for it. It's just that that a chain might have kept them a bit safer; that's why we have them.

A friend of mine was mugged walking home from work one night recently (it was about midnight). She wasn't hurt, but was of course shaken up and felt horribly violated. She won't be walking home again like that as it clearly isn't as safe as she thought. And I think that's sensible. But I don't feel that makes me a 'mugging apologist'. My friend wasn't at fault for the scummy thing that happened to her, but she DID put herself in a situation which wasn't very safe... and she got stung.

When I was burgled whilst sleeping I wished I'd have put the burglar alarm on as it might have stopped it from happening. I put it on every night now, rather than saying "I shouldn't have to; it's the burglars that shouldn't burgle".

Why is saying that it's a good idea to keep ourselves safe somehow misconstrued as mitigating rape in a way that doesn't seem to with other crimes? It's not intended that way, and it's not judging or blaming anyone who has been raped. It doesn't matter if you were drunk, half-naked, whatever - the crime was the rape and the victim did nothing wrong.

So is it unreasonable to think that in some situations, some ladies have put themselves in situations which weren't at all sensible and made them prey to scummy behaviour? And to think that that isn't the same thing as saying they are to blame or deserving of rape in any way?

(Just to add, this isn't about the Ched Evans case any more than any other particular case. And to anyone who has been a rape victim, I hope nothing I've said offends you, it certainly wasn't meant to. And I hope those who hurt you receive justice)

Yes Jessica but some people are suggesting that precautions that are considered legitimate and reasonable for all other crimes are 'victim blaming' for rape.

gin Didn't someone point out earlier that in the UK it can only be defined as rape if it is a man attacking a woman? so yes, being a woman will put you at risk of being raped because in the UK men can't be raped apparently.

Pacific, it could protect you against some rape but not all just as locking your door could protect you against some thieves but not all.

Well, yes, nothing protects you against anything absolutely, but to repeat rape is about control/power/the need to subdue, not primarily about sex (it uses sex as a weapon) and most rapes are carried out by somebody the victim has known, not nasty strangers lurking down dark alleyways.

Oops, it can only be defined as rape if a penis is doing the raping. So both men and women can be raped.

I can't speak for others, oops, but I do worry about one scenario.

I choose to drink alcohol. Sometimes beyond the recommended daily allowance. Sometimes I walk to the local shop to get another bottle of wine, following an unlit path through 100m of trees. Sometimes I go alone after dark. Sometimes I'm wearing a short skirt. I know the risks this involves, and I choose to take those risks (cos I won't drive if I've been drinking, and I'm too lazy to take the half mile round trip and I can't be arsed to get changed and I want more wine). If I were to be raped on one of my quests for more wine I might not report it because I fear people who advocate 'keep yourself safe' would blame me for taking the risk. It might well be unreasonable, but it is how I feel (though I am fully aware my feelings might change if it actually happened).

It is my experience that the whole don't walk home alone at night can be a bit of a red herring. I have been followed by a man a few times in a town centre in broad daylight, I've also had people come up to me and aggressively ask me for money, again in a city centre in broad daylight. That doesn't mean I'm never going to walk in a city centre in daylight in case I have a man follow me. I think it's important to have your wits about you wherever you are so I rarely walk along with ear phones in and I think that's quite sensible advice. I would never criticise anyone for choosing to wear ear phones though and say oh well, it's your own fault if you get mugged.

I think we need to get across that you need to learn to protect yourself as you cannot rely on other people to help you. I remember as a child seeing a woman having racist abuse shouted at her by a group of young men. Every time she tried to walk away one of them would block her path. This was in a busy town centre on a Saturday afternoon. Maybe somebody had called the police but not a single person said anything. Loads of shoppers just walked past as though it wasn't happening. I also remember reading recently of a woman who was in a pharmacy queue who had an intimidating man keep making crude, sexual remarks to her. Again, people ignored what was happening. She said instead of swearing at him which she felt like doing she stated exactly what he was doing to her in a loud and clear voice, "This is harassment". She then repeated "what's happening here is that you are harassing me." She said it was only then that people around her started to notice and chip in and the man eventually went away. So we need to be teaching women to stand up for themselves in a way that isn't going to put their safety in danger. What that woman did was so simple yet it worked. She didn't respond aggressively, she didn't turn away and try to ignore him she just stated the truth. I think it's very wise words, people do not like you calling them out on their behaviour and stating it how it is. This woman also stated that she knew someone who had been sexually harassed at work and instead of the man being dealt with as you would expect she was asked what she could do to make her work environment less toxic. Her union put the onus on HER to stop this man from sexually harassing her which is pathetic. I don't see how this is any different to telling women they shouldn't walk home alone at night. Yeah, maybe it's not all that sensible but sometimes you just do and the onus shouldn't be on women to stop themselves from being raped.

Another thing I was told that instead of shouting that you're being raped or attacked you should shout FIRE because people are much more likely to respond and see what's going on. If they hear someone shouting rape they are too scared to get involved. Sad but very true. I think equipping women in how to best protect themselves and get help when in these situations is far better than just saying "don't walk down alley ways." Because everyone will be in a vulnerable situation at some point in their lives, and I don't believe anyone who says they haven't.

I once got into a car with a male stranger. I'm sure if I'd been raped I would have been hauled over the coals for doing it. I was already in a vulnerable situation though as I was completely lost, extremely upset and had no idea how to get home. A man offered me a lift to where I wanted to go. I had to make a quick decision about what to do and my gut instinct felt that he was trustworthy. Stupid? Probably but he didn't lay a finger on me, he was lovely and I was so grateful to him for helping me. I'm sure if he had have attacked me people would have been saying it was my fault and there was even a part of me questioning would it have been my fault. Therefore, I fail to see the point in pointing out to women who have been raped that they may have put themselves in a vulnerable position. Having known a rape victim, they blamed themselves every day for what happened. Having someone say "well you put yourself in a dangerous situation BUT I'm not blaming you for what happened" whilst you sit there content and smug that it would never happen to you because you would NEVER do anything so stupid is not at all helpful and pointless.

I'd rather take care not to be out late in a lonely alley or too drunk to be vigilant, than suffer the trauma of rape.

But I have no right to tell other women to do the same because they may end up being raped.

The first is an example of exercising personal safety the second is victim blaming.

" So, yes, I told my son that wearing designer clothes and having a decent phone in some areas of London would make him a target."

Whereas being in posession of a vagina makes a person a target anywhere.........

I wasn't raped, but when I was a teenager, I got drunk whilst out, a car stopped and a guy asked if I could change a tenner, I stupidly said yes leant in, his mate grabbed my wallet and drove off.

Not my fault but I felt bloody stupid afterwards, kicked myself and felt that I'd put myself in that situation, and therefore could have prevented it had I acted differently.

ie I blamed myself a little bit even though really the muggers were to blame.

If I'd been sexually assaulted in a similar sort of situation, eg got into a strangers car whilst drunk according to this thread I shouldn't be allowed in any circumstances to feel responsible in any way.

I don't really see why it would be all that different?

Good point, weathervain

" because in the UK men can't be raped apparently"

They can, of course. Just not by women.

fwiw I think ops post is measured and sensible. there is no way to stop a potential rapist, but there are definitely ways not to make yourself a sitting duck for these odious examples of mankind. I have instilled this in my dds

men who don't avoid criminals are more likely to find themselves victims of crime too House - probably not rape though.

House what makes you think we don't give general safety advice to both genders? I'm forever getting leaflets though my door from neighbourhood watch about not leaving windows open and doorstep scammers, that kind of thing.

Add message | Report | Message poster HouseWhereNobodyLives Fri 09-Jan-15 21:06:41
Or is it just women who need to avoid criminals? Just women who need to feel partly responsible for crimes committed against them? Just women who should curtail their lives?

wtf every one curtails their life unless you have a death wish

If you feel it wise to get into cars with strange men get so drunk you don't know what day of the week and think it puts you in no more danger than if you weren't blind drunk then fair play

Add message | Report | Message poster HouseWhereNobodyLives Fri 09-Jan-15 21:19:03
True? So why do we pit so much effort into telling women it's their responsibility to avoid being a victim? Why not give general safety advice to both genders that applies to all situations? Why label it 'rape avoidance' when we all know that that's impossible?
*we do the police had a stall at our Christmas fate and were giving child bike safety tips and tips on house to avoid be burgled I think actually and most coumminty fairs the police now have stalls

Some posters on here seem to be confusing a state of moral utopia (where women are never raped) with reality (where women are sometimes raped).

Do you really think that rapists rape a woman because they think it is her fault? They rape her because they want to rape her, and make up the excuse afterwards to make themselves feel better.