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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

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AIBU with this perspective on rape?

846 replies

TheOnlyWayThrough · 09/01/2015 11:24

Rape is vile and awful and always the rapists fault in its entirety. Of course it is, you'd be mad to disagree.

The bit I don't really get is the argument that women shouldn't need to take any responsibly for keeping themselves safe. The idea that women (and sometimes men) wouldn't be vulnerable if rapists didn't rape.

Well of course that is true, but that would be in an ideal world. And this certainly isn't one, so the point is moot surely? That principle could be applied to all walks of life where some people do inexplicably nasty things to others... which is basically ALL THE TIME. Some things are obviously worse than others, and rape is up there with the most obscene. It's not the only awful thing though.

You don't hear people saying that elderly people shouldn't need to have chains on their door for their own protection. And if someone forced their way into the home of someone elderly without a chain, I wouldn't for a second blame them/say they were asking for it. It's just that that a chain might have kept them a bit safer; that's why we have them.

A friend of mine was mugged walking home from work one night recently (it was about midnight). She wasn't hurt, but was of course shaken up and felt horribly violated. She won't be walking home again like that as it clearly isn't as safe as she thought. And I think that's sensible. But I don't feel that makes me a 'mugging apologist'. My friend wasn't at fault for the scummy thing that happened to her, but she DID put herself in a situation which wasn't very safe... and she got stung.

When I was burgled whilst sleeping I wished I'd have put the burglar alarm on as it might have stopped it from happening. I put it on every night now, rather than saying "I shouldn't have to; it's the burglars that shouldn't burgle".

Why is saying that it's a good idea to keep ourselves safe somehow misconstrued as mitigating rape in a way that doesn't seem to with other crimes? It's not intended that way, and it's not judging or blaming anyone who has been raped. It doesn't matter if you were drunk, half-naked, whatever - the crime was the rape and the victim did nothing wrong.

So is it unreasonable to think that in some situations, some ladies have put themselves in situations which weren't at all sensible and made them prey to scummy behaviour? And to think that that isn't the same thing as saying they are to blame or deserving of rape in any way?

(Just to add, this isn't about the Ched Evans case any more than any other particular case. And to anyone who has been a rape victim, I hope nothing I've said offends you, it certainly wasn't meant to. And I hope those who hurt you receive justice)

OP posts:
OopsButItWasntMe · 09/01/2015 18:59

Alice you said it was a simple matter of men learning to control their drinking so it sounded like you meant just men.

PiperIsTerrysChoclateOrange · 09/01/2015 19:00

www.rapecrisis.org.uk/commonmyths2.php

PiperIsTerrysChoclateOrange · 09/01/2015 19:01

There are sadly still many common myths surrounding rape and other forms of sexual violence; here are just a few:

Myth Women shouldn't go out alone, especially at night. Women are most likely to be raped outside, by strangers in dark alleyways, and this is the best way for a woman to protect herself.

Fact Women are often advised to avoid sexual violence by never walking alone at night. But in fact, only around 10% of rapes are committed by 'strangers'. Around 90% of rapes are committed by known men; someone who the survivor has previously known, trusted, often even loved. People are raped in their homes, their workplaces and other settings where they have previously felt safe. Sometimes, the myth that rape is most commonly perpetrated by strangers can make the majority of survivors, who have been raped or sexually assaulted by someone they know, even less likely to report to the police or even confide in someone close about their experiences, for fear of not being believed, out of a sense of shame or self-blame, and/or because they have mixed feelings about getting the perpetrator 'into trouble'. This myth can also control women's movements and restrict their rights and freedom.

Myth Rape only happens to young, 'attractive' women.

Fact Many people believe that only a certain 'type' of woman is in danger of being raped or sexually assaulted. In fact, people, and especially women and girls, of all ages, classes, culture, ability, sexuality, race and faith are raped.

Some men joke or make comments about a woman's appearance or age to indicate whether she is sexually desirable or available. But the perceived 'attractiveness' of a victim has very little to do with sexual violence. Rape is an act of violence not sex.

Myth Everyone knows when a woman says no, she often means yes.

Fact Rape is a terrifying, violent and humiliating experience that no-one wants or asks for. Legally a person has the right to change their mind about having sex at any point of sexual contact. If a sexual partner does not stop at the time a person says no, this is sexual assault. If a person is in a relationship with someone or has had sex with a person before, this does not mean that they cannot be assaulted or raped by that person. Consent must be given every time two people engage in sexual contact. Sex without consent is rape.

Myth The woman was drunk / took drugs / was hitch hiking / wore tight clothes / worked in the sex industry / seduced him / probably got what she was asking for.

Fact If a person is unconscious or their judgement is impaired by alcohol or drugs, legally they are unable to give consent. Having non-consensual sex with a person who is intoxicated is rape.

Rapists use a variety of excuses to attempt to discredit the women they rape and to justify their crimes. But no-one asks or deserves to be raped or sexually assaulted and 100% of the responsibility for any act of sexual violence lies with its perpetrator.

Media often refer to women in the 'roles' that they have - 'young mum', 'grandmother', 'doctor's wife', 'prostitute' etc. - and describe arbitrary factors like what she was wearing or how she'd been behaving when she was sexually assaulted. The implication is that some women are more 'innocent' victims than others, that some are more worthy of sympathy, or that some women are partly to blame for their experience of sexual violence.

The rules imposed on women's behaviour allow rapists to shift the responsibility for rape onto women wherever possible, so that rapists are sometimes portrayed as victims of malicious allegations, carelessness or stupidity. There is no other crime in which so much effort is expended to make the victim appear responsible.

Myth Women eventually relax and enjoy it. They secretly want to be raped.

Fact Women do not enjoy being raped. Victims of murder, robbery and other crimes are never portrayed as enjoying the experience.

Myth The woman did not get hurt or fight back. It couldn't have been rape.

Fact Men who rape or sexually assault women and girls will often use weapons or threats of violence to intimidate women. The fact that there is no visible evidence of violence does not mean that a woman has not been raped.

Faced with the reality of rape, women make second by second decisions, all of which are directed at minimising the harm done to them. At the point where initial resistance, struggling, reasoning etc. have failed, the fear of further violence often limits women's physcial resistance. The only form of control that seems available to women at this point is limiting the harm done to them.

Many people who experience sexual violence describe freezing or feeling paralysed with shock or fear.

Myth Men of certain races and backgrounds are more likely to commit sexual violence.

Fact There is no typical rapist. Studies show that men who commit sexual violence come from every economic, ethnic, racial, age and social group.

Myth Men who rape or sexually assault are mentally ill or monsters.

Fact Studies have indicated that as few as 5% of men are psychotic at the time of their crimes. Few convicted rapists are referred for psychiatric treatment.

Myth The man was drunk / on drugs / depressed / under stress / wasn't himself.

Fact Men use a variety of excuses to justify the act of rape. There is never an excuse.

Myth Once a man is sexually aroused he cannot help himself. He has to have sex.

Fact Most rapes are premeditated i.e. they are either wholly or partially planned in advance. Rapes committed by more than one perpetrator are always planned. Men can quite easily control their urges to have sex - they do not need to rape a woman to satisfy them. Rape is an act of violence - not sexual gratification. Men who rape or sexually assault does so to dominate, violate and control.

Myth Men who rape are sexually frustrated / do not have the opportunity to have sex with a willing partner.

Fact Men who rape are as likely as any other man to be cohabiting or having a significant relationship with a woman. More than one in five women are raped by their partners or their husbands.

Myth Women often make up stories or lie about being raped.

Fact For anyone who has been raped or sexually assaulted, whether or not to report to the police can be a difficult decision. At present, it's estimated that only 15% of the 85,000 women who are raped and over 400,000 who are sexually assaulted in England and Wales every year report. One significant reason many women and girls tell us they don't go to the police is because of their fear of not being believed.

Unfortunately, a disproportionate media focus on the very small number of cases each year that involve a so-called false allegation of sexual violence perpetuates the public perception that malicious false reporting is common. In fact, it is this perception that is entirely false. For many years, studies have suggested that false reporting rates for rape are no different from false reporting rates for any other crime, that is, around 4%. In March 2013, the Crown Prosecution Service published a survey confirming that false rape reports are 'very rare' and suggesting they could make up less than 1% of all reports. Read more here.

Myth Women cannot rape.

Fact The majority of sexual assaults and rapes are committed by men against women and children. Nonetheless, a small number of women do perpetrate sexual violence. Often women and children who've been sexually assaulted or abused by women, for example within their family or a same-sex relationship, are particularly fearful that they will not be believed, that their experiences won't be taken seriously or won't be considered 'as bad' as being raped by a man. This can make it difficult for these survivors to access services or justice.

Adult men are also raped and sexually assaulted. While Rape Crisis focuses particularly on the needs and rights of women and girls, and on providing specialist services within women-only safe spaces, we of course recognise that the impacts of sexual violence on the lives of men and boys are no less devastating and we believe all survivors of sexual violence deserve specialist support. Find more information for male survivors here.

In law, only a man can commit the offence of Rape [Sec 1 (1) SOA 2003], as this is defined as penetration with a penis. Non-consensual penetration with something other than a penis is defined as Sexual Assault by Penetration. For those who've experienced sexual violence that involved penetration by something other than a penis, whoever the perpetrator was, these legal definitions can feel restrictive, and as if their experience is not considered as serious.

Rape Crisis provides specialist services to women and girls who've experienced any form of sexual violence at any time in their lives. When we work with survivors, we are led by them, encourage them to name and frame their own experiences, and use the language that they find most meaningful and respresentative, rather than strict legal terminology.

kattykinski · 09/01/2015 19:02

That's really interesting piper, thank you

OopsButItWasntMe · 09/01/2015 19:07

I don't believe any of those myths Piper. I still don't think it's victim blaming to tell my children not to get too drunk and not to walk home alone at night. It may not prevent them being a victim of any crime ever but it may avoid a few.

Jessica85 · 09/01/2015 19:09

Oops, no I don't think there should be no laws. I'm just very cautious about how much laws should limit freedom. Everyone draws that line at a different point I think.

My problem really comes when one group of people (in this case women) are told to limit their freedom more than another group (in this case men). If the argument was simply 'don't get drunk' I wouldn't mind. If it was 'don't get walk alone in a dodgy area in case you get mugged' I wouldn't mind. My problem is that the argument seems to be 'women, don't get drunk in case you get raped'.

gincamparidryvermouth · 09/01/2015 19:10

Oh I love a good old disingenuous wide-eyed "I'm not victim-blaming BUT...!" thread.

Not as much as some people love cognitive dissonance, though.

AliceLidl · 09/01/2015 19:11

"If we are talking about the Ched case, the girl went back to hotel room with his pal. She's giving out a message that she is up for it, even if that's the wrong message."

Are you actually saying that if a woman goes to a hotel room with a man she's giving out the message that she's up for sex with all of the other men he knows, even if they are not there at the time and she has no idea they even exist?

"I think it is really important for young girls to make their intentions crystal clear, and not leave it to a drunk, testosterone-fuelled Young Man to figure it out."

So young girls must say to all drunk, testosterone-fuelled young men "I don't want you to rape me and I don't want you to invite your friends to come and rape me either" before that man is responsible for his actions?

"Saying here that the girl did nothing wrong does not make up for the impact it has had on her life, where in a situation such as this particular one, it was probably avoidable had she made different choices."

If CE, CM, and the two perverted creeps watching through the window had made different choices then this situation was definitely avoidable.

If CM had chosen not to procure a woman he found sprawled on the floor, a woman they had previously stepped over as though she were a piece of rubbish on the street, for example, and take her back to a hotel room, it would not have happened.

If CM had chosen not to sent CE the "I've got a bird" text, it would not have happened.

If CE, who was not with CM when the woman went back to the hotel with him, had chosen not to turn the taxi around and go to the hotel without her knowledge or consent, it wouldn't have happened.

If CE had chosen not to lie and blag a key to the hotel room off the reception staff and then use it to let himself into a locked room, it would not have happened.

If CE had not then asked for "a go" on her or alternatively if CM had not offered CE "a go" on her, this would not have happened.

If any of those four men had had one tiny ounce of decency or respect for women, it would not have happened.

OopsButItWasntMe · 09/01/2015 19:12

Jessica I disagree. I think the message is 'don't get drunk and walk through dodgy areas because you could be a victim of crime'. It just happens that one of those crimes is rape for women.

PiperIsTerrysChoclateOrange · 09/01/2015 19:14

I will advice my children not to get blind drunk and walk home alone, my reasons is because they could get hurt. Being drunk impairs your judgement and senses.

It makes sense to get a taxi because it's warm and more likely to get home without having an accident.

OopsButItWasntMe · 09/01/2015 19:19

I have not been getting involved in Ched Evans threads but Alice I don't think McDonald found her sprawled on the floor. She got into a taxi with him and there is CCTV footage of her walking into and out of and back into the hotel. Remember that he was not found guilty of rape so obviously it was considered that she was capable of consenting to sex with him.

Hakluyt · 09/01/2015 19:19

If people put as much effort into bringing their sons up not to be rapists and they put into teaching their daughters how to avoid being raped the world would be a much better place in so many ways.

PacificDogwood · 09/01/2015 19:24

Piper Thanks for taking the time to type your post. V good.

maddening · 09/01/2015 19:27

t is true that you can take precautions that do reduce the risk of being the victim of a rape - and it is sad and wrong that walking in certain places and fitting a particular profile increase the risk to you (eg one crime programme featuring a serial rapist and murderer investigation had a n expert talking about rape statistics and the typical victim was generally one of a certain weight and stature as these women and girls were easy for the rapist to attack being lighter and easier to overcome , additionally there is consideration of other factors such as vulnerability eg drunk or a child, likelihood to be in a situation where you are raped eg a prostitute is more likely to be in a situation where she is vulnerable to rape and murder) and while it is sensible to take precautions, and we really shouldn't have to, it is never the victim's fault and it is a fine line between saying "stay safe" and "it is the victim's responsibility" which it never is.

What we should be doing is asking the government to enable the police and courts to work harder to make our streets and homes safer.

Jessica85 · 09/01/2015 19:28

Oops, this thread is specifically about rape. If the advice is simply 'don't walk through dodgy areas or get drunk in case you become a victim of crime', I am, personally, happy with that advice. Provided victims of crime are treated the same (by the police, courts, juries and judges) regardless of whether they choose to follow that advice.

gincamparidryvermouth · 09/01/2015 19:30

I think the message is 'don't get drunk and walk through dodgy areas because you could be a victim of crime'. It just happens that one of those crimes is rape for women

It makes fuck all difference if you're drunk or sober, home or away, young or old. Being a woman is what puts you at risk but God help you if you acknowledge it.

maddening · 09/01/2015 19:31

Ps statistics and morals/ principles are often at odds

ChatEnOeuf · 09/01/2015 19:33

Completely agree, while rape is obscene, no question, getting so drunk you don't know who you are with and what you are saying is stupid. I will be teaching my daughter that she has to control what she can control - I don't want her to fall victim to anything and she will know to take responsibility for those things she can influence. By this I'm not talking about the clothes she wears, but to know where her drink is at all times; to not walk home alone through well-known blackspots; to stick with her friends and to carry a personal alarm if she feels uncomfortable.

AliceLidl · 09/01/2015 19:34

I believe they stepped over her while she was on the floor of a shop earlier in the evening oops

CM was found not guilty of rape and I didn't say he was guilty of rape, but he still chose to go back to a hotel with her when she was clearly not sober, he chose to send that text to CE, he chose to stop having sex with her so CE could take his place, and he chose to leave her alone in the room with CE.

That's the point I was making.

If any one of the four men involved in the rape and the events that led up to it had made just one different choice, the rape probably wouldn't have happened.

Yet the PP I was responding to seems to think it's all down to the one teenage girl just for making the choice to get drunk.

YonicSleighdriver · 09/01/2015 19:42

Yy Alice.

Setup1 · 09/01/2015 19:43

What an immature op

AllBoxedUp · 09/01/2015 19:46

I find it depressing that JohnQuig seems to see it as unreasonable to expect a man not to have sex with a drunk women in case she is not capable of consent but thinks it's reasonable to expect all women to adjust their behaviour in case they are raped.

I agree it's not exactly man hating to want to behave as if we live in a world where rapists are round every corner.

I do think you can teach people to have a level of personal responsibility but it shouldn't be aimed solely at women.

PuffinsAreFictitious · 09/01/2015 19:52

I am officially naming the bit where a drunk man is not 100% sure his drunk partner is fully able to consent and is consenting, and then stops what they're doing, tucks her in and waits til she's sober, Buffy's Law.

It's interesting to me that the only man-hating that's happened on this thread has been from...... A MAN

And of course OP YABU. And adding to the heavy toll of rape myths that seem to be perpetuated on here by the same group of people.

PacificDogwood · 09/01/2015 19:54

If the advice is simply 'don't walk through dodgy areas or get drunk in case you become a victim of crime', I am, personally, happy with that advice. Provided victims of crime are treated the same

Yes, I would agree with this too.
With the one exception: rape.
It would not protect you against getting raped.

grovel · 09/01/2015 20:07

Interesting thread. When my DS was 17 he walked home (slightly drunk) through a notorious park at one in the morning. He was mugged. I was boiling over with fury at the muggers but DS also got both barrels (from me) a few days later. We had had loads of conversations about how to get home safely after a drink. He had (presumably under the influence of alcohol) thought he'd "wing it".

I don't want to compare a black eye, broken ribs and fat lip with rape but he had not taken "reasonable" care of his own safety. We should all teach our children that shit can happen and that they should plan ahead to minimise the risk being a victim. So, yes, I told my son that wearing designer clothes and having a decent phone in some areas of London would make him a target.

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