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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

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AIBU with this perspective on rape?

846 replies

TheOnlyWayThrough · 09/01/2015 11:24

Rape is vile and awful and always the rapists fault in its entirety. Of course it is, you'd be mad to disagree.

The bit I don't really get is the argument that women shouldn't need to take any responsibly for keeping themselves safe. The idea that women (and sometimes men) wouldn't be vulnerable if rapists didn't rape.

Well of course that is true, but that would be in an ideal world. And this certainly isn't one, so the point is moot surely? That principle could be applied to all walks of life where some people do inexplicably nasty things to others... which is basically ALL THE TIME. Some things are obviously worse than others, and rape is up there with the most obscene. It's not the only awful thing though.

You don't hear people saying that elderly people shouldn't need to have chains on their door for their own protection. And if someone forced their way into the home of someone elderly without a chain, I wouldn't for a second blame them/say they were asking for it. It's just that that a chain might have kept them a bit safer; that's why we have them.

A friend of mine was mugged walking home from work one night recently (it was about midnight). She wasn't hurt, but was of course shaken up and felt horribly violated. She won't be walking home again like that as it clearly isn't as safe as she thought. And I think that's sensible. But I don't feel that makes me a 'mugging apologist'. My friend wasn't at fault for the scummy thing that happened to her, but she DID put herself in a situation which wasn't very safe... and she got stung.

When I was burgled whilst sleeping I wished I'd have put the burglar alarm on as it might have stopped it from happening. I put it on every night now, rather than saying "I shouldn't have to; it's the burglars that shouldn't burgle".

Why is saying that it's a good idea to keep ourselves safe somehow misconstrued as mitigating rape in a way that doesn't seem to with other crimes? It's not intended that way, and it's not judging or blaming anyone who has been raped. It doesn't matter if you were drunk, half-naked, whatever - the crime was the rape and the victim did nothing wrong.

So is it unreasonable to think that in some situations, some ladies have put themselves in situations which weren't at all sensible and made them prey to scummy behaviour? And to think that that isn't the same thing as saying they are to blame or deserving of rape in any way?

(Just to add, this isn't about the Ched Evans case any more than any other particular case. And to anyone who has been a rape victim, I hope nothing I've said offends you, it certainly wasn't meant to. And I hope those who hurt you receive justice)

OP posts:
kattykinski · 09/01/2015 18:37

Yes I agree yonic, but what if the man is so drunk he can't think that rationally?

JeanneDeMontbaston · 09/01/2015 18:38

katty, if I am so drunk I have forgotten it's illegal to drink-drive, and I do it, and I kill someone, I'm still guilty.

kattykinski · 09/01/2015 18:39

I've thought about this a lot lately, I think I'll continue to do so, these threads are very interesting and also educational as a lot of people on here know a lot about the subject,stats of conviction rates etc.

Jessica85 · 09/01/2015 18:39

Katty, the difficulty is that you can be too drunk to consent but not too drunk to be criminally responsible. Just as you can be too young to consent, but not too young to be criminally responsible. Tbh, I struggle with this too.

YonicSleighdriver · 09/01/2015 18:40

Then he should not have sex.

kattykinski · 09/01/2015 18:41

I know Joanne. I'm not really thinking of the legal points right now. I'm more thinking about the rights, wrongs and grey areas of behaviour and what I think is right. I'm mulling it over really. I have children, one of each and I want to be sure that I'm saying the right things to them when they're older. Obviously the law is key, but it's wider than that isn't it.

YonicSleighdriver · 09/01/2015 18:41

However drunk you are, it's probably well embedded in your psyche not to drive.

I would like it just as embedded into everyone's psyche that they need to be sure of a sexual oartner's capacity.

AliceinWinterWonderland · 09/01/2015 18:42

katty tell them both not to get stupidly drunk. Surely that covers a load of problems right there.

kattykinski · 09/01/2015 18:43

It does Alice.

YonicSleighdriver · 09/01/2015 18:43

Tell your children to wait till morning if they or their partner are so drunk, their judgement is off.

What's the worst that could happen if they do this? They miss a couple of occasions of sex that might be vaguely fun but probably forgotten with the hangover.

What's the worst that could happen if they don't? A grievous sexual assault.

MaMaMarmoset · 09/01/2015 18:44

I'm struggling because people keep changing their minds in re: to the rules. Someone up the thread said any kind of drunken sex is rape on the part of the man! Why? If 2 drunk people consent, why does it matter if one is more drunk than the other? People can drink the exact same amount and be different levels of drunk depending on how they handle their drink.Should every ONS be preceded by a breathalyser test so that we can be sure they're both the same amount of drink?

If you need a breathaliser.. don't. How about that? You won't die from lack of sex you dimwit.

If you are fully capable of taking your trousers off, achieving an erection and then repeatedly thrusting your penis in to a woman. You are sober enough to be aware of your situation. To know that she is too drunk to consent.

If you are too drunk for that and she jumps on you and sticks your penis inside her and has sex with you.. she has committed sexual assault

I'm confused as to why you're confused?

You being drunk does not absolve you of the crime any more than if you are drunk driving and run over a drunk jay walker. You still killed them while drink driving. You're still going down.

JeanneDeMontbaston · 09/01/2015 18:45

True, yonic - I made the comparison because we are so conditioned not to drink drive.

And that's a recently change - my dad's generation don't all have that idea, because honestly, it was a lot more acceptable.

The law has not changed (I know limits have, but the law itself hasn't). What's changed is attitudes.

katty - yes, I'm not really talking about the law either, but trying to show how you might feel about a parallel situation. I don't think many of us would worry about judging someone guilty of murder if they were a drunk driver, because we wouldn't worry 'but maybe s/he was not thinking rationally and so we should sympathise'.

AliceinWinterWonderland · 09/01/2015 18:45

You see, katty I would wonder if a man that got so drunk that he doesn't know if he has consent or not, may be so drunk that he doesn't notice (or care) that she is saying NO or struggling against him.

MaMaMarmoset · 09/01/2015 18:45

xpost with loads of people but that was to john upthread not katty

OopsButItWasntMe · 09/01/2015 18:47

Jessica but plenty of people tell it to their sons too. It's just that it might help a woman to avoid rape among the other crimes that could be committed against them as well.

Yves what about statistics showing that houses that are locked/have a burglar alarm are less likely to be burgled? It wouldn't protect you against all thieves though. Your car could get broken into or you could be mugged but at least by locking your house, you can reduce the likelihood of you being robbed in those particular circumstances.

Jessica "all illegal things limit freedom". Do you think that is unacceptable? Should we not have any laws?

katty That's an interesting point.

kattykinski · 09/01/2015 18:47

The examples of drunk driving though are a bit tricky. It's illegal to drive when drunk, it's not illegal to have sex when drunk, so yes you do have it inbuilt in you not to drive when you're drunk, but not to abstain from sex

AliceinWinterWonderland · 09/01/2015 18:47

So IMO it's a simple matter of men learning to control their drinking.

But let's be clear - many rapes do not involve alcohol at all.

Blistory · 09/01/2015 18:47

For it to be rape, the woman doesn't just need to be drunk. It's only rape in that case if she's drunk enough that she's deemed incapable of consent AND the man does not have reasonable grounds for believing that she did consent.

It really is still quite a burden of proof on the victim so men really really don't need to worry about being falsely accused

What they do need to realise is that it's incredibly unlikely they can judge whether a women is too drunk to consent and the safest and decent thing to do is to wait until she's sober.

If he's too drunk to determine whether she's drunk then he's very unlikely to be able to prove that he had a reasonable belief that she consented. And yes the onus should be on him to establish consent as he's the one penetrating another person's body.

OopsButItWasntMe · 09/01/2015 18:51

Alice Why just men? Isn't that curtailing the freedom of just men then? Women can drink as much as they like but men can't get drunk?

OopsButItWasntMe · 09/01/2015 18:52

Alice Why just men? Isn't that curtailing the freedom of just men then? Women can drink as much as they like but men can't get drunk?

JeanneDeMontbaston · 09/01/2015 18:53

That's true, katty.

But I don't think that's why it is an ingrained response. As I say, it didn't used to be - my dad (and I really worry about this) is of a generation from before the massive campaigns they made against it, and he just doesn't have the same kneejerk 'this is really serious and I mustn't risk it' attitude we have.

AliceinWinterWonderland · 09/01/2015 18:54

I don't believe I said that it was JUST men. Confused Ideally, both men and women should use common sense. But all too often, the onus is on the woman.

MaMaMarmoset · 09/01/2015 18:55

No just potential rapists. If you think having a couple drinks might turn you in to a rapist you shouldn't drink.

YonicSleighdriver · 09/01/2015 18:56

Everyone can get drunk.

Everyone too drunk to judge their partner's capacity should not sexually interact with them.

YonicSleighdriver · 09/01/2015 18:57

My dad too, Jeanne.

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