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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

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AIBU with this perspective on rape?

846 replies

TheOnlyWayThrough · 09/01/2015 11:24

Rape is vile and awful and always the rapists fault in its entirety. Of course it is, you'd be mad to disagree.

The bit I don't really get is the argument that women shouldn't need to take any responsibly for keeping themselves safe. The idea that women (and sometimes men) wouldn't be vulnerable if rapists didn't rape.

Well of course that is true, but that would be in an ideal world. And this certainly isn't one, so the point is moot surely? That principle could be applied to all walks of life where some people do inexplicably nasty things to others... which is basically ALL THE TIME. Some things are obviously worse than others, and rape is up there with the most obscene. It's not the only awful thing though.

You don't hear people saying that elderly people shouldn't need to have chains on their door for their own protection. And if someone forced their way into the home of someone elderly without a chain, I wouldn't for a second blame them/say they were asking for it. It's just that that a chain might have kept them a bit safer; that's why we have them.

A friend of mine was mugged walking home from work one night recently (it was about midnight). She wasn't hurt, but was of course shaken up and felt horribly violated. She won't be walking home again like that as it clearly isn't as safe as she thought. And I think that's sensible. But I don't feel that makes me a 'mugging apologist'. My friend wasn't at fault for the scummy thing that happened to her, but she DID put herself in a situation which wasn't very safe... and she got stung.

When I was burgled whilst sleeping I wished I'd have put the burglar alarm on as it might have stopped it from happening. I put it on every night now, rather than saying "I shouldn't have to; it's the burglars that shouldn't burgle".

Why is saying that it's a good idea to keep ourselves safe somehow misconstrued as mitigating rape in a way that doesn't seem to with other crimes? It's not intended that way, and it's not judging or blaming anyone who has been raped. It doesn't matter if you were drunk, half-naked, whatever - the crime was the rape and the victim did nothing wrong.

So is it unreasonable to think that in some situations, some ladies have put themselves in situations which weren't at all sensible and made them prey to scummy behaviour? And to think that that isn't the same thing as saying they are to blame or deserving of rape in any way?

(Just to add, this isn't about the Ched Evans case any more than any other particular case. And to anyone who has been a rape victim, I hope nothing I've said offends you, it certainly wasn't meant to. And I hope those who hurt you receive justice)

OP posts:
Blistory · 09/01/2015 17:19

John,

As the law currently stands in Scotland, England and Wales, women are not capable of committing rape. They can only ever be the victims so no need to discuss them as perpetrators.

It really is okay to have a thread all about women.

AliceinWinterWonderland · 09/01/2015 17:20

John so what you're saying here is the man in question has literally no self control at all, and can't say "no, this isn't a good idea." Confused

MonstrousRatbag · 09/01/2015 17:20

Actually in English law women can't rape. Rape is defined in s.1 of the Sexual Offences Act 2003 as follows:

1-(1) A person (A) commits an offence if—

(a) he intentionally penetrates the vagina, anus or mouth of another person (B) with his penis,
(b) B does not consent to the penetration, and
(c) A does not reasonably believe that B consents.
CaptainHolt · 09/01/2015 17:20

No, you've got the wrong end of the stick (why am I surprised?)

I don't know why you are surprised. Is it because you can't tell the difference between a car or a phone and an actual human being?

Go on, show me the right end of the stick. I dare you.

DuelingFanjo · 09/01/2015 17:21

I have never had a drunken one night stand.

I have however been very drunk and in the presence of several men, and in the presence of single men.

I have never been raped, maybe I am just lucky given all the men out there who just can't help themselves or maybe I was lucky because none of the men I met were rapists.

I have however been assaulted by a 50+ year old man as a child. Perhaps I was stupid for being alone with him or for not locking away my vagina?

KERALA1 · 09/01/2015 17:21

Two friends raped. One at 6.30pm walking home from work through very nice area of town. The other was in her bed in a holiday villa. Op nonsensical magical thinking.

Hakluyt · 09/01/2015 17:22

Yep. Happy to talk about women raping men. You start.

GlitzAndGigglesx · 09/01/2015 17:22

No I haven't had a drunken ons. I have been groped on the train home from work. Silly me for going to work

JohnQuig · 09/01/2015 17:23

So we're basically saying it's all the fault of men?

Why can't you people get through your head that women DO rape?

Please read this, it genuinely made me cry:

thoughtcatalog.com/lorenzo-jensen-iii/2014/08/19-men-share-stories-of-being-raped-by-a-woman-nsfw/

Men DO get raped and it is vastly under-reported. They're told they're lucky or are told "well men want sex anyway". Why is this OK? The law needs to be changed. The US defines rape as "any non-consensual penetration of the anus or vagina," so why isn't the UK the same?

PiperIsTerrysChoclateOrange · 09/01/2015 17:23

I have never had a one night stand, 1 sexual partner.

I do have drunk sex with my husband, but in the early days of our relationship he would never have sex if I was drunk

when I was sober and said to him it's ok to have sex with me when I am drunk but he still don't. When I am drunk he gets me water and put me into bed and leaves me alone.

AliceinWinterWonderland · 09/01/2015 17:25

But that's not what you were saying.. you said "man and woman, both drunk, woman says yes, how does the man basically make sure she doesn't come back saying she was too drunk to consent?" ... By saying no yourself. When there's any doubt whatsoever that she is too drunk, be a gentleman and say no.

I know, I know. Your penis might fall off in shock. So few men, it seems, can actually contemplate this option. Hmm

CaptainHolt · 09/01/2015 17:25

They're told they're lucky or are told "well men want sex anyway".

Like being force fed chocolate cake? People never say that about raped women
Oh wait....

Hakluyt · 09/01/2015 17:26

I'm not saying it's all the fault of the men. I'm saying it's all the fault of the rapist.

CaptainHolt · 09/01/2015 17:27

The law needs to be changed. The US defines rape as "any non-consensual penetration of the anus or vagina," so why isn't the UK the same?

What did your MP say when you wrote to him/her?

Maybe if you link the petition you've started people may sign it if they agree.

PacificDogwood · 09/01/2015 17:27

Well, my now-DH said 'no' when I drunkenly tried to take advantage of him many years ago - it can be done.

Of course nobody should rape or otherwise sexually assault anybody.
But that does not minimise or reduce the fact that the overwhelming number of rapes are committed by men and inflicted on women.

The Law, of course, is an ass...

JohnQuig · 09/01/2015 17:29

I'm done. You've all proven how narrow-minded you are and apparently men are just horrible rapists. Well done, MN, you've proven what people say about you.

Blistory · 09/01/2015 17:30

John,

Why don't you start your own thread about women who sexually assault men ? It really isn't relevant to this thread and just to save you a post demanding to know why :-

It's because rape happens proportionally more to woman than men
It's because women are expected to be the gatekeepers to sex
It's because women are judged badly for wanting and enjoying sex
It's because women are brought up being told that it's their responsibility to not get raped
It's because women aren't believed when they do report rape
It's because it's predominantly women who are afraid of rape
It's because women are being treated as the sex class
It's because women are expected to be available for sex
It's because women are told that no doesn't mean no
It's because women are lied to about where the greater danger lies
It's because women are raped to keep them in their place
It's because rapists don't get prosecuted in the majority of cases.

squoosh · 09/01/2015 17:31

'Well done, MN, you've proven what people say about you.'

Flouncers just love this line.

Jessica85 · 09/01/2015 17:31

I have had a drunken one night stand. But I wasn't so drunk that I couldn't have consented. A fair few times the man concerned said 'are you sure' and I responded with 'yes'. So definitely not rape.

Quite recently I was very drunk and wanted to have sex, but DP thought I was too drunk so we didn't. Strangely, he was able to make a rational decision even though a drunken woman (who loves him and lives with him) wanted to have sex with him. And (even more strangely) a drunken woman was able to not have sex with someone who said no. I really can't understand what is so complicated.

PacificDogwood · 09/01/2015 17:31

I like Hakluyt's statement: I blame the rapist.
Yes.
That.

John, how do you propose the men who get raped by women 'keep themselves safe'? Should these raping women not not rape??

HouseWhereNobodyLives · 09/01/2015 17:32

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

JohnQuig · 09/01/2015 17:32

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

squoosh · 09/01/2015 17:32

Yaaaaawwwwwnnnn

ItsAllKickingOffPru · 09/01/2015 17:33

Nope. Just rapists. HTH.

PacificDogwood · 09/01/2015 17:33

Oh John, now you are seriously letting yourself down Grin