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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

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AIBU with this perspective on rape?

846 replies

TheOnlyWayThrough · 09/01/2015 11:24

Rape is vile and awful and always the rapists fault in its entirety. Of course it is, you'd be mad to disagree.

The bit I don't really get is the argument that women shouldn't need to take any responsibly for keeping themselves safe. The idea that women (and sometimes men) wouldn't be vulnerable if rapists didn't rape.

Well of course that is true, but that would be in an ideal world. And this certainly isn't one, so the point is moot surely? That principle could be applied to all walks of life where some people do inexplicably nasty things to others... which is basically ALL THE TIME. Some things are obviously worse than others, and rape is up there with the most obscene. It's not the only awful thing though.

You don't hear people saying that elderly people shouldn't need to have chains on their door for their own protection. And if someone forced their way into the home of someone elderly without a chain, I wouldn't for a second blame them/say they were asking for it. It's just that that a chain might have kept them a bit safer; that's why we have them.

A friend of mine was mugged walking home from work one night recently (it was about midnight). She wasn't hurt, but was of course shaken up and felt horribly violated. She won't be walking home again like that as it clearly isn't as safe as she thought. And I think that's sensible. But I don't feel that makes me a 'mugging apologist'. My friend wasn't at fault for the scummy thing that happened to her, but she DID put herself in a situation which wasn't very safe... and she got stung.

When I was burgled whilst sleeping I wished I'd have put the burglar alarm on as it might have stopped it from happening. I put it on every night now, rather than saying "I shouldn't have to; it's the burglars that shouldn't burgle".

Why is saying that it's a good idea to keep ourselves safe somehow misconstrued as mitigating rape in a way that doesn't seem to with other crimes? It's not intended that way, and it's not judging or blaming anyone who has been raped. It doesn't matter if you were drunk, half-naked, whatever - the crime was the rape and the victim did nothing wrong.

So is it unreasonable to think that in some situations, some ladies have put themselves in situations which weren't at all sensible and made them prey to scummy behaviour? And to think that that isn't the same thing as saying they are to blame or deserving of rape in any way?

(Just to add, this isn't about the Ched Evans case any more than any other particular case. And to anyone who has been a rape victim, I hope nothing I've said offends you, it certainly wasn't meant to. And I hope those who hurt you receive justice)

OP posts:
HouseWhereNobodyLives · 09/01/2015 17:33

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Hakluyt · 09/01/2015 17:35

Many of the cases in your link are about the sexual abuse of children, which is a different subject. Interestingly several of the stories I recognize from other sites- they do seem to circulate.

morethanpotatoprints · 09/01/2015 17:35

Hak

Do you not instil such virtues in your dd, do you not give her advice on how to keep safe, from all kinds of crime?

HouseWhereNobodyLives · 09/01/2015 17:35

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Message withdrawn at poster's request.

JeanneDeMontbaston · 09/01/2015 17:36

I haven't bothered to read far back in the thread, but glancing at the last few posts, I'm going to guess what happened.

Random Bloke: 'I have women in my life, so this is almost as important to me as it is to you ladypeople. I want my women to be safe. Isn't that touching?!'

MN 'Er ... that's nice dear.'

Random Bloke: 'Hey! No one is noticing my wonderful human woman-lovingness! You women just don't want to take responsibility!'

MN: 'No. We just don't like rape myths.'

Random Bloke: 'Wah, wah, what about men? Men are raped too!'

MN: 'Yes ... and?'

Random Bloke: 'Well you're all a bunch of evil feminist harpies and I bet no one likes you anyway!'

Amirite? Close?

HouseWhereNobodyLives · 09/01/2015 17:36

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Hakluyt · 09/01/2015 17:37

Oh,John, your reasonable facade is slipping.

shovetheholly · 09/01/2015 17:37

YABVU.

CaptainHolt · 09/01/2015 17:38

I'm actually amazed any of you have children considering you hate blokes so much

You think men will rape women if they don't password protect their vaginas, yet we are the ones with a low opinion of men Hmm

OopsButItWasntMe · 09/01/2015 17:38

I agree with you OP but I know that's not a popular opinion on MN. I've always thought it was a bit strange though. It's not like you're saying that women would never get raped but it may reduce your chances in certain circumstances just as other precautions reduce the chances of other crimes being committed against you.

PacificDogwood · 09/01/2015 17:39

Jeanne, you wonder woman - how did you know??! Grin

HouseWhereNobodyLives · 09/01/2015 17:39

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Hakluyt · 09/01/2015 17:40

Morethan- I most certainly don't tell her to "keep her knickers on" to protect herself from rape.........

JeanneDeMontbaston · 09/01/2015 17:40

Grin It's almost like they're a bit formulaic, isn't it, pac?

YvesJutteau · 09/01/2015 17:42

The whole point is that men aren't "just horrible rapists". It's because men aren't all horrible rapists that women want to be able to go out and socialise with them, have a drink, have sex with them when they both want to. It's because men aren't all horrible rapists that most of them understand the concept of consent. It's because men aren't all horrible rapists that most of them can be in the presence of a horribly drunk woman whose clothes happen to have fallen off and yet still not have sex with her.

The subtext of the "women should take responsibility for their own safety" line that you advocate is "women should behave as though all men are horrible rapists". So who's being man-hating here?

PacificDogwood · 09/01/2015 17:44

Yes, strange.
It's almost as if you had heard this kind of thing before, Jeanne.
Who'd've thunk it??
Wink

This 'keeping safe' message is just so pernicious - I opted not to go and see the Mountain Gorillas at the Ruandan/Zairean (as it was at the time) border due to guerrilla activity and I was not raped.
Now, was that my superior sense of safety or bloody good luck as I was living in the area anyway? I maintain I was just lucky I did not encounter a rapist in my travels and when working there.

morethanpotatoprints · 09/01/2015 17:45

House

Tbh, if you read my posts I mentioned purses, mugging OAPs being targeted etc just as much.

I don't think it is a woman's responsibility to make sure rape doesn't happen, because you can be in a situation that poses no risk/ isn't an obvious one and rape still happen.
I still believe you can have responsibility for being careful, minimising the risks though and in thinking this not be victim blaming as many on here seem to think.

I can remember the advice given to all women by the police when JTR was at large, he was still able to strike, it still happened, but some people were more cautious. The police never once were accused of victim blaming by informing women to be vigilant and cautious.

OopsButItWasntMe · 09/01/2015 17:46

Yves, but does that mean that by locking our doors at night that we are assuming that everyone out there is a burglar? It doesn't make sense to apply that logic to rape but not to any other crime.

JeanneDeMontbaston · 09/01/2015 17:47

The police never once were accused of victim blaming by informing women to be vigilant and cautious.

Are you very sure of that, morethan?!

JeanneDeMontbaston · 09/01/2015 17:48

I mean, it's not like the police have never had to issue apologies for victim blaming, is it?!

Hakluyt · 09/01/2015 17:48

If people put as much effort into bringing their sons up not to be rapists and they put into teaching their daughters how to avoid being raped the world would be a much better place in so many ways.

JanineStHubbins · 09/01/2015 17:48

Jack the Ripper? How old are you, morethanpotatoprints?!

Jessica85 · 09/01/2015 17:49

Oops, I can't speak for anyone else, but it annoys me because it means I'm told I have to limit my personal freedoms to avoid being attacked, in a way that men aren't told to. And because I worry that if I were raped when drunk I probably wouldn't report it because people would judge me.

squoosh · 09/01/2015 17:50

'Jack the Ripper? How old are you, morethanpotatoprints?!'

Not a funny thread but that did make me chuckle.

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