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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

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AIBU with this perspective on rape?

846 replies

TheOnlyWayThrough · 09/01/2015 11:24

Rape is vile and awful and always the rapists fault in its entirety. Of course it is, you'd be mad to disagree.

The bit I don't really get is the argument that women shouldn't need to take any responsibly for keeping themselves safe. The idea that women (and sometimes men) wouldn't be vulnerable if rapists didn't rape.

Well of course that is true, but that would be in an ideal world. And this certainly isn't one, so the point is moot surely? That principle could be applied to all walks of life where some people do inexplicably nasty things to others... which is basically ALL THE TIME. Some things are obviously worse than others, and rape is up there with the most obscene. It's not the only awful thing though.

You don't hear people saying that elderly people shouldn't need to have chains on their door for their own protection. And if someone forced their way into the home of someone elderly without a chain, I wouldn't for a second blame them/say they were asking for it. It's just that that a chain might have kept them a bit safer; that's why we have them.

A friend of mine was mugged walking home from work one night recently (it was about midnight). She wasn't hurt, but was of course shaken up and felt horribly violated. She won't be walking home again like that as it clearly isn't as safe as she thought. And I think that's sensible. But I don't feel that makes me a 'mugging apologist'. My friend wasn't at fault for the scummy thing that happened to her, but she DID put herself in a situation which wasn't very safe... and she got stung.

When I was burgled whilst sleeping I wished I'd have put the burglar alarm on as it might have stopped it from happening. I put it on every night now, rather than saying "I shouldn't have to; it's the burglars that shouldn't burgle".

Why is saying that it's a good idea to keep ourselves safe somehow misconstrued as mitigating rape in a way that doesn't seem to with other crimes? It's not intended that way, and it's not judging or blaming anyone who has been raped. It doesn't matter if you were drunk, half-naked, whatever - the crime was the rape and the victim did nothing wrong.

So is it unreasonable to think that in some situations, some ladies have put themselves in situations which weren't at all sensible and made them prey to scummy behaviour? And to think that that isn't the same thing as saying they are to blame or deserving of rape in any way?

(Just to add, this isn't about the Ched Evans case any more than any other particular case. And to anyone who has been a rape victim, I hope nothing I've said offends you, it certainly wasn't meant to. And I hope those who hurt you receive justice)

OP posts:
JohnQuig · 09/01/2015 17:10

CaptainHolt

My point was we take precautions for our own safety.

If you're so drunk that you don't know your own name and are falling all over the place, aren't you just inviting people to take advantage of you (e.g. mugging, other things) or you might even consent to things you really wouldn't if you had all your faculties.

BarbarianMum · 09/01/2015 17:10

Yeah, all us women walking road dangerous areas with unlocked vaginas just asking for it. [deep contempt]

EElisavetaofJingleBellsornia · 09/01/2015 17:11

"Inviting people to take advantage" Angry

Yes, fuck off.

Jessica85 · 09/01/2015 17:11

That's the point, john, getting that drunk isn't INVITING anyone to do anything to you. Including, but not limited to, rape.

JohnQuig · 09/01/2015 17:11

EElisa

You may consent to something at the time (when a lot of people are pissed, they really don't have a clue what they're saying) that you later regret.

PiperIsTerrysChoclateOrange · 09/01/2015 17:11

Why not just tell people not to rape.

Why is it women must take responsibility.

I am insured against most of my possessions, not just in case the small risk of getting broken into, but for accidental damage as well.

I can't insure my genitals, if I was to get raped it would be for that mans pleasure.

My possesions gets robbed it for the money, perhaps to buy drugs or because people are desperate.

Rape you can not use or sell.

JohnQuig · 09/01/2015 17:12

I don't see what I've said wrong here. I know a rapist isn't going to be stopped, but surely they're more inclined towards the people they can easily take advantage of?

Also, let's talk about women raping men shall we? Or are we just sticking to a one-sided argument? Because IT DOES HAPPEN and it is vastly under-reported.

ItsAllKickingOffPru · 09/01/2015 17:13

No, you're not inviting them to do anything. They can look after you if you're in a bit of a state or they can walk on by. What they don't have to do is rape you. Their choice, not your fault.

DuelingFanjo · 09/01/2015 17:13

"You may consent to something at the time (when a lot of people are pissed, they really don't have a clue what they're saying) that you later regret."

ah - I see where you are going.

All these women who regret 'sex' and so claim rape?

Fuck off.

PiperIsTerrysChoclateOrange · 09/01/2015 17:14

If I went into a bank drunk for a loan, the bank rightly so wouldn't give me a loan. The reason is that I'm not in a position to sign the legal documents.

If I am passed out drunk, then I am not in a position to consent to sex.

GlitzAndGigglesx · 09/01/2015 17:14

But John surely men should be able to get through their thick skulls that a paralytic drunk woman isn't capable of making proper decisions? No you shouldn't get blackout drunk but nor should men take that as a hint to stick his dick in a woman

CaptainHolt · 09/01/2015 17:15

My point was we take precautions for our own safety

By talking about locking cars? Because women are objects that can be locked up to protect them while the real humans men live their lives?

JohnQuig · 09/01/2015 17:15

PiperIsTerry

Woah hang on a minute. So if a woman is really drunk and I'm drunk and she's coming onto me and says she wants sex and I had sex with her, that would be rape?

If so I really think that's wrong and (as usual) the man would be blamed.

Hakluyt · 09/01/2015 17:15

And surely the man concerned would see that the woman was too drunk to give proper consent? Unless he was too drunk for rational thought too-in which case why isn't it him who gets the opprobrium for being drunk? Why is the woman expected to be the sexual gatekeeper?

BarbarianMum · 09/01/2015 17:16

You know what, let's not John. It is completely beside the point, as I would presume you the advice you'd give to potential victims - don't get drunk, don't go out, lock up your privates - would be the same.

DuelingFanjo · 09/01/2015 17:17

"So if a woman is really drunk and I'm drunk and she's coming onto me and says she wants sex and I had sex with her, that would be rape?"

Do you often have 'sex' with women who are too drunk to give consent?
Or would you err on the side of caution and make sure she is safe?

JohnQuig · 09/01/2015 17:17

CaptainHolt

No, you've got the wrong end of the stick (why am I surprised?)

It's like putting a password on your phone - it's just a precaution and keeping yourself safe.

AliceinWinterWonderland · 09/01/2015 17:17

John One would think you'd have the common sense to realise that it's better safe than sorry, and having sex with a woman that is clearly quite drunk is probably not the best idea. Hmm Surely this is not rocket science...

PacificDogwood · 09/01/2015 17:17

I did not mean to imply that all ONS are ill-advised, just that alcohol inhibits and many people will end up doing things they might not when sober.
As pointed out above, a drunk man is more likely to rape.

There are 'ill advised ONS' and 'really rather good ONS' IME….

The analogy to break-ins and theft is rubbish: rich house and poor houses get broken in to. houses with alarms and without. Pretty women get raped and not-so-overtly sexually attractive women get raped, men get raped.

Rape is all about the rapist.

Yes still I do get the 'gist' of the OP although the message needs to be 'Don't rape', not 'Keep yourself safe'.

A friend of mine was raped against a wall in an alley way. A friend of her brothers insisted he walk her home as it could be dangerous to walk alone.

This kind of thing is more common that we'd all like to think Angry

NoArmaniNoPunani · 09/01/2015 17:17

Let's talk about women raping men shall we?

Has the law on this changed then? I thought rape was penetration with a penis under uk law.

PacificDogwood · 09/01/2015 17:19

Top 10 Tips to Stop Rape from Rape Scotland

I rather like it.

JohnQuig · 09/01/2015 17:19

So no-one here has had a drunken one night stand then I'm guessing? So if a drunk girl says 10 times she gives consent, that still isn't good enough?

DuelingFanjo · 09/01/2015 17:19

"It's like putting a password on your phone - it's just a precaution and keeping yourself safe."

hang on while I just put my four digit codeword on my vagina.

ItsAllKickingOffPru · 09/01/2015 17:19

Best not to, John, if you can help it at all. Which, contrary to common belief (amongst rapists), it is possible to do.

JohnQuig · 09/01/2015 17:19

NoArmani

And it's disgusting that it's like that.

Women DO rape men. There are lots of cases.

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