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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

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AIBU with this perspective on rape?

846 replies

TheOnlyWayThrough · 09/01/2015 11:24

Rape is vile and awful and always the rapists fault in its entirety. Of course it is, you'd be mad to disagree.

The bit I don't really get is the argument that women shouldn't need to take any responsibly for keeping themselves safe. The idea that women (and sometimes men) wouldn't be vulnerable if rapists didn't rape.

Well of course that is true, but that would be in an ideal world. And this certainly isn't one, so the point is moot surely? That principle could be applied to all walks of life where some people do inexplicably nasty things to others... which is basically ALL THE TIME. Some things are obviously worse than others, and rape is up there with the most obscene. It's not the only awful thing though.

You don't hear people saying that elderly people shouldn't need to have chains on their door for their own protection. And if someone forced their way into the home of someone elderly without a chain, I wouldn't for a second blame them/say they were asking for it. It's just that that a chain might have kept them a bit safer; that's why we have them.

A friend of mine was mugged walking home from work one night recently (it was about midnight). She wasn't hurt, but was of course shaken up and felt horribly violated. She won't be walking home again like that as it clearly isn't as safe as she thought. And I think that's sensible. But I don't feel that makes me a 'mugging apologist'. My friend wasn't at fault for the scummy thing that happened to her, but she DID put herself in a situation which wasn't very safe... and she got stung.

When I was burgled whilst sleeping I wished I'd have put the burglar alarm on as it might have stopped it from happening. I put it on every night now, rather than saying "I shouldn't have to; it's the burglars that shouldn't burgle".

Why is saying that it's a good idea to keep ourselves safe somehow misconstrued as mitigating rape in a way that doesn't seem to with other crimes? It's not intended that way, and it's not judging or blaming anyone who has been raped. It doesn't matter if you were drunk, half-naked, whatever - the crime was the rape and the victim did nothing wrong.

So is it unreasonable to think that in some situations, some ladies have put themselves in situations which weren't at all sensible and made them prey to scummy behaviour? And to think that that isn't the same thing as saying they are to blame or deserving of rape in any way?

(Just to add, this isn't about the Ched Evans case any more than any other particular case. And to anyone who has been a rape victim, I hope nothing I've said offends you, it certainly wasn't meant to. And I hope those who hurt you receive justice)

OP posts:
Blistory · 09/01/2015 16:51

Amazing how this thread contrasts with the other one about writing a letter to all men withdrawing consent.

On there some posters are showing outrage that the OP appears to imply that all men are potential rapists and how dare she and yet on here, posters are quite happily and seriously telling women to take precautions which would seem to suggest that maybe all men are potential rapists.

If all men are potential rapists then the only precaution that women should take is to live at home alone in a fortress.

If not all men are potential rapists, then women should be free to live their lives without acting as if they are.

JohnQuig · 09/01/2015 16:54

I'm of the opinion that women should be just a little bit more concerned with keeping themselves safe. Don't hang around dangerous areas and don't get so blackout drunk that you don't have a clue what's going on. These were things that were always taught to my sister.

JohnQuig · 09/01/2015 16:54

I'm of the opinion that women should be just a little bit more concerned with keeping themselves safe. Don't hang around dangerous areas and don't get so blackout drunk that you don't have a clue what's going on. These were things that were always taught to my sister.

Hakluyt · 09/01/2015 16:54

How about we teach our youn men to take sensible precautions to avoid being racists. Not more than two drinks an evening. Making sure they are never alone with a woman and wear special padlocked trousers that can only be unlocked by a police officer or their mum.

JohnQuig · 09/01/2015 16:54

I'm of the opinion that women should be just a little bit more concerned with keeping themselves safe. Don't hang around dangerous areas and don't get so blackout drunk that you don't have a clue what's going on. These were things that were always taught to my sister.

JohnQuig · 09/01/2015 16:55

Whoops, that posted three times. Sorry.

HouseWhereNobodyLives · 09/01/2015 16:55

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

EElisavetaofJingleBellsornia · 09/01/2015 16:58

Really John? Us silly women just keep on hanging round dark alleys, asking for trouble? Were you taught anything about consent in sexual relationships, or was it all down to your sister to 'keep safe'?

PacificDogwood · 09/01/2015 16:58

I understand what the OP is saying.

I also know that nothing will prevent a rape taking place.

I wish we could get the idea across that rape is NOT about sex, but about control and power. Little children get raped, old women, men - in all states of dress/undress or sobriety.

Having said that, I do agree we all have a responsibility to consider possible consequences of our actions.
TBH, going out and getting legless will put you at higher risk of disinhibited behaviour and giving ill-advised consent for a ONS which will put you at risk of STIs or unwanted pregnancy. It is not exclusively rape to worry about when out and under the influence.

EElisavetaofJingleBellsornia · 09/01/2015 16:58

Next time go for not at all, John.

GlitzAndGigglesx · 09/01/2015 17:00

House I agree. My friends brother was in a bar when he went to the toilet which was empty. As he was using the urinal a man came in and raped him. How could he have not put himself at risk there? Holding his bladder all night? Pissing through a hole in his trousers? The views of some people on this thread are truly shocking. And fwiw this man doesn't drink so alcohol can't be blamed. I'm struggling to see how you can take responsibility in cases like this

JohnQuig · 09/01/2015 17:02

EElisa

It's taking precautions. I'm a 6'4" white male and wouldn't go down a dark alley or get so drunk I don't know what's going on - because that just invites trouble - mugging, rape, violence etc.

You wouldn't leave your car unlocked whilst you went into Asda, would you? All I'm saying is women should take the precautions for THEIR OWN SAFETY. Stay in groups, be aware of your surroundings - things you can't do if you're drunk and falling all over the floor.

MaMaMarmoset · 09/01/2015 17:02

I'm of the opinion that women should be just a little bit more concerned with keeping themselves safe. Don't hang around dangerous areas and don't get so blackout drunk that you don't have a clue what's going on. These were things that were always taught to my sister.

You know men get raped too John? Did your mother advise you not to go out? Did she advise you that you were more likley to rape someone if you got drunk?

BarbarianMum · 09/01/2015 17:02
MaMaMarmoset · 09/01/2015 17:03

Really do you stay in groups for your own safety all the time? How do you walk home with friends in a group?? Confused

my dh is also a big bloke he finds it invites people who want to have a pop. Maybe he shouldn't be allowed in pubs alone?

MaMaMarmoset · 09/01/2015 17:05

A friend of mine was raped against a wall in an alley way.

A friend of her brothers insisted he walk her home as it could be dangerous to walk alone.

DuelingFanjo · 09/01/2015 17:05

Why do some men grow up thinking that women have a responsibility to stop themselves from getting raped?

Oh ffs. I spent some of today talking to someone on twitter who basically blamed women for not being 'decent'.

Another Twitter person posted this "Consent is saying yes to sex . Going to a room with a man is not consent to sex with whatever man turns up in that room" - going anywhere where there are men, whatever 'state' you are in, is not consent.

Do men really think so little of men that they think the majority of them can't control themselves when around women?

Jessica85 · 09/01/2015 17:05

Pacific, why do you assume that having a ons is ill-advised? Why assume that ons means unprotected sex? Do STIs and unwanted pregnancy not happen if you are in a relationship?

Can you clarify that the advice not to get legless for these reasons applies to men and women equally, and that these reasons are totally separate to the issue of rape?

EElisavetaofJingleBellsornia · 09/01/2015 17:05

I'm not sure what relevance your height or ethnicity are here John. I have been raped, I was at home, wearing pyjamas and shouting "No". I was raped because the man who did it is a rapist.

MaMaMarmoset · 09/01/2015 17:05

*she was raped by the friend if that is not clear

JohnQuig · 09/01/2015 17:06

MaMaMarmoset

Actually, yes my mother did warn me to never get so drunk that I don't know what's going on because people can take advantage of you in lots of different ways. You also say stuff when you're drunk that you might not really be consenting to.

Oh, sorry, I'm a man so obviously I'm wrong. Don't women rape too?

All I was saying is take precautions.

CaptainHolt · 09/01/2015 17:06

You wouldn't leave your car unlocked whilst you went into Asda, would you?

No but i would go into asda Waitrose without locking my vagina and expect people not to shove their dick into it. What's you fucking point?

DuelingFanjo · 09/01/2015 17:07

"You wouldn't leave your car unlocked whilst you went into Asda, would you?"

how the fuck do you propose I lock my vagina? I can't leave it at home, I have to take it with me.

Fuck off.

EElisavetaofJingleBellsornia · 09/01/2015 17:09

"You say stuff when you're drunk that you might not really be consenting to"? What does this mean? Even after drinking alcohol, I can usually make it clear whether or not I am consenting.

CantBeBotheredThinking · 09/01/2015 17:09

I am happy to advise my dc to not drink to excess to keep them safer from risks of harm all sorts of harm what I won't do is say that behaving in this way will keep you safe from rape. What I object to is the specific advice relating to rape given to women, I wish as much effort went in to educating men about not raping as is given to women to avoid rape. I do think the ched evans case has shown how much education about consent is needed.

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