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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

See all MNHQ comments on this thread

AIBU with this perspective on rape?

846 replies

TheOnlyWayThrough · 09/01/2015 11:24

Rape is vile and awful and always the rapists fault in its entirety. Of course it is, you'd be mad to disagree.

The bit I don't really get is the argument that women shouldn't need to take any responsibly for keeping themselves safe. The idea that women (and sometimes men) wouldn't be vulnerable if rapists didn't rape.

Well of course that is true, but that would be in an ideal world. And this certainly isn't one, so the point is moot surely? That principle could be applied to all walks of life where some people do inexplicably nasty things to others... which is basically ALL THE TIME. Some things are obviously worse than others, and rape is up there with the most obscene. It's not the only awful thing though.

You don't hear people saying that elderly people shouldn't need to have chains on their door for their own protection. And if someone forced their way into the home of someone elderly without a chain, I wouldn't for a second blame them/say they were asking for it. It's just that that a chain might have kept them a bit safer; that's why we have them.

A friend of mine was mugged walking home from work one night recently (it was about midnight). She wasn't hurt, but was of course shaken up and felt horribly violated. She won't be walking home again like that as it clearly isn't as safe as she thought. And I think that's sensible. But I don't feel that makes me a 'mugging apologist'. My friend wasn't at fault for the scummy thing that happened to her, but she DID put herself in a situation which wasn't very safe... and she got stung.

When I was burgled whilst sleeping I wished I'd have put the burglar alarm on as it might have stopped it from happening. I put it on every night now, rather than saying "I shouldn't have to; it's the burglars that shouldn't burgle".

Why is saying that it's a good idea to keep ourselves safe somehow misconstrued as mitigating rape in a way that doesn't seem to with other crimes? It's not intended that way, and it's not judging or blaming anyone who has been raped. It doesn't matter if you were drunk, half-naked, whatever - the crime was the rape and the victim did nothing wrong.

So is it unreasonable to think that in some situations, some ladies have put themselves in situations which weren't at all sensible and made them prey to scummy behaviour? And to think that that isn't the same thing as saying they are to blame or deserving of rape in any way?

(Just to add, this isn't about the Ched Evans case any more than any other particular case. And to anyone who has been a rape victim, I hope nothing I've said offends you, it certainly wasn't meant to. And I hope those who hurt you receive justice)

OP posts:
Fugacity · 09/01/2015 16:26

I don't think it is possible to have a reasonable discussion here.

PenguinsandtheTantrumofDoom · 09/01/2015 16:28

I thought you were just confused about the facts of the case Fugacity. But when you said:

"If we are talking about the Ched case, the girl went back to hotel room with his pal. She's giving out a message that she is up for it, even if that's the wrong message. "

You honestly believe that going back to a hotel room with one man gives out the message that she is 'up for' with another? Holy, holy shit .

MonstrousRatbag · 09/01/2015 16:28

Most posters are expressing themselves in reasonable terms, I think.

slug · 09/01/2015 16:29

I don't know. Most of the discussion seems pretty reasonable to me.

Apart from the slut shaming, rape apologising from some posters that is....

HouseWhereNobodyLives · 09/01/2015 16:29

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ConfusedInBath · 09/01/2015 16:29

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HouseWhereNobodyLives · 09/01/2015 16:31

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YvesJutteau · 09/01/2015 16:33

"The comment about being disgusted about keeping knickers on came from somebody else right at the start of the thread. "

Really?

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morethanpotatoprints Fri 09-Jan-15 15:18:49 [

Willferrellisactuallykindahot · 09/01/2015 16:33

If we are talking about the Ched case, the girl went back to hotel room with his pal. She's giving out a message that she is up for it, even if that's the wrong message.

I think it is really important for young girls to make their intentions crystal clear, and not leave it to a drunk, testosterone-fuelled Young Man to figure it out.

Up for it from whom exactly? So if a woman has sex with a man, that is automatic consent for any man, even one she has never met before, to come in and penetrate her as well?

Is this seriously what you are teaching your sons? That if a girl is 'up for it' with one of their friends, then whether or not they can join in as well without her consent is a 'grey area'?

Hakluyt · 09/01/2015 16:33

"
I don't think it is possible to have a reasonable discussion here."

Well, not with people who think that women have to take reaponsibility for men's sexual behaviour, no, probably not.

HouseWhereNobodyLives · 09/01/2015 16:36

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CaptainHolt · 09/01/2015 16:39

How do you 'minimise the risks' and still live a normal life?

Genuine question.

I'm even happy to ignore the obvious don't go to school/work/out in public, but don't stay at home, don't have a partner, don't be single and definitely don't be a lesbian curtailments.

Going back to a PP, do I not go out at night? Women who go out 4 times a month are more likely to find themselves with a rapist, apparently. Shall I go out twice, then count my blessings until the first of the next month. Shall I not drink? What if I like drinking? Shall I not do it anyway? Shall I never have a consensual ons? Shall I choose my outfits based on what will make me less rapable rather than wear what the fuck I like? Maybe I should always wear trousers, but then there was that man who was acquitted of rape because the judge said he couldn't have pulled his victims jeans off without her complicity, so.... Shall I kick them in the bollocks as a PP suggested, even though it will probably lead to catastrophic injury when I am hit back? Can I walk home alone, or is that a 'risk'? Perhaps better to walk with a friend, but there is a risk he will rape me so I should get a cab, because that works. Oh, wait...I could stay with a friend in town, sleep on her sofa maybe, but then there is her flatmate/husband/brother so maybe I shouldn't. Maybe I'll just stay at home, except that is the 'riskiest' place I can be.

EElisavetaofJingleBellsornia · 09/01/2015 16:39

Fugacity it's quite simple. Men should ensure the person they would like to have sex with, wants to have sex with them. You have a very low opinion of men if you think their testosterone will mean they are unable to restrain themselves from raping unless women fend them off. Please, please do read the link Iona has posted, and try to think about it.

No1warnedme · 09/01/2015 16:41

I haven't actually bothered to read every single post on this thread, as I could feel myself getting more and more wound up. A couple of things to mention - 1) the op wasn't talking about attributing blame to the victim because he/she may have not acted sensibly, just that everyone should take a degree of responsibility for themselves. I will be teaching my dd how to keep herself as safe as possible in any given situation. As I will with ds once he arrives (April). 2) I was raped when I was 15. It was one of the worst experiences I have had, and yet I am the first to hold my hand up and say that I had risky behaviour, thought myself invincible, and didn't once consider that anything could be dangerous. After a couple more years of behaving like an idiot (continuing to allow myself to be at risk - of many things), I realised that life would be a whole lot calmer and safer if I was sensible. I value my life, my choices, and my happiness. Much like I wouldn't get wasted and walk (stagger) home alone now because it's not worth the RISK. The risk of being raped, kidnapped, knocked over, lost, murdered. Risks that exist in our world. Risks that are unfortunately more common when the victim is alone / unable to look after themselves / incapable of making the 'right' decision. Any sort of vulnerable, actually. Could be mentally, physically. It's never the victim's fault. It is always the perpetrator. However, everyone should take a degree of responsibility for their own welfare.

Utkatasana · 09/01/2015 16:43

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MaMaMarmoset · 09/01/2015 16:43

The vast majority of rapes are by a known person. It would make more sense to say that "ladies shouldn't be around friennds and family members" rather than ladies should spend all their time looking over their shoulder and wasting their lives not living because they could get raped down a dark alley way.

When Londoners went back the work after the 7/7 bombings people said good for them, not giving in to terrorist.

Wome are supposed to give in to the rapist and never have lives.

YABU

YonicSleighdriver · 09/01/2015 16:44

Being behind a locked hotel room door with the person who is staying in that room and who has the only key to that room is usually a safe way of not being penetrated by someone not in that room.

LadyLuck10 · 09/01/2015 16:44

Well said No1. Sorry about your experience.

morethanpotatoprints · 09/01/2015 16:45

I never said that doing anything would keep you safe from rape?
All through this thread i have talked about minimising the risks.
By definition if there was a particular thing you could do to stop it, rape wouldn't exist.
As a christian, no I don't judge people who have different morals to me. If I find something disgusting I don't mind who else does and who doesn't.

To meet a young girl and have her tell you the awful rape that happened to her and be judgemental would take a person with no sympathy or empathy.
I listened and felt so sorry for her and have often wondered where she is now and how her life has turned out. You don't have to harshly judge those with different morals to you.
I've also known prostitutes and been able not to judge them too.

There are two types of women, those who take caution and those who don't neither deserve to be raped, or bring it on themselves, or are to be blamed.

Just to clarify.

Hakluyt · 09/01/2015 16:45

"As a parent of a daughter I'm instilling the value of keeping your knickers on and not getting so drunk you don't know what you are doing"

BarbarianMum · 09/01/2015 16:47

I think taking 'sensible precautions' can keep you marginally, marginally safer from some types of rapist but on the whole, the only way to be significantly less likely to be raped is to pretty much go nowhere and see no-one. So thanks but I'll continue to take my chances.

HouseWhereNobodyLives · 09/01/2015 16:48

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Jessica85 · 09/01/2015 16:48

I know this is massively simplifying the situation, but here goes.

There are two ways we, as society, can reduce the risk of a drunk person being raped.

  1. tell people not to get drunk
  2. tell people that it isn't okay to rape drunk people

I personally prefer option 2.

HouseWhereNobodyLives · 09/01/2015 16:49

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

EElisavetaofJingleBellsornia · 09/01/2015 16:50

"As a christian I don't judge people"; "I do find one night stands disgusting, yes".

Confused