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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

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AIBU with this perspective on rape?

846 replies

TheOnlyWayThrough · 09/01/2015 11:24

Rape is vile and awful and always the rapists fault in its entirety. Of course it is, you'd be mad to disagree.

The bit I don't really get is the argument that women shouldn't need to take any responsibly for keeping themselves safe. The idea that women (and sometimes men) wouldn't be vulnerable if rapists didn't rape.

Well of course that is true, but that would be in an ideal world. And this certainly isn't one, so the point is moot surely? That principle could be applied to all walks of life where some people do inexplicably nasty things to others... which is basically ALL THE TIME. Some things are obviously worse than others, and rape is up there with the most obscene. It's not the only awful thing though.

You don't hear people saying that elderly people shouldn't need to have chains on their door for their own protection. And if someone forced their way into the home of someone elderly without a chain, I wouldn't for a second blame them/say they were asking for it. It's just that that a chain might have kept them a bit safer; that's why we have them.

A friend of mine was mugged walking home from work one night recently (it was about midnight). She wasn't hurt, but was of course shaken up and felt horribly violated. She won't be walking home again like that as it clearly isn't as safe as she thought. And I think that's sensible. But I don't feel that makes me a 'mugging apologist'. My friend wasn't at fault for the scummy thing that happened to her, but she DID put herself in a situation which wasn't very safe... and she got stung.

When I was burgled whilst sleeping I wished I'd have put the burglar alarm on as it might have stopped it from happening. I put it on every night now, rather than saying "I shouldn't have to; it's the burglars that shouldn't burgle".

Why is saying that it's a good idea to keep ourselves safe somehow misconstrued as mitigating rape in a way that doesn't seem to with other crimes? It's not intended that way, and it's not judging or blaming anyone who has been raped. It doesn't matter if you were drunk, half-naked, whatever - the crime was the rape and the victim did nothing wrong.

So is it unreasonable to think that in some situations, some ladies have put themselves in situations which weren't at all sensible and made them prey to scummy behaviour? And to think that that isn't the same thing as saying they are to blame or deserving of rape in any way?

(Just to add, this isn't about the Ched Evans case any more than any other particular case. And to anyone who has been a rape victim, I hope nothing I've said offends you, it certainly wasn't meant to. And I hope those who hurt you receive justice)

OP posts:
GlitzAndGigglesx · 09/01/2015 16:08

bluemilk.wordpress.com/2010/06/01/dont-get-raped/

MonstrousRatbag · 09/01/2015 16:08

Fugacity, tell your sons that only 'Yes' means 'Yes', so if they don't actually hear a 'Yes' they need to back off, fast.

HouseWhereNobodyLives · 09/01/2015 16:08

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Chillyegg · 09/01/2015 16:09

"I do not understand why young girls go out wearing next to nothing, and then get steaming drunk."
Because they can! How does that lead to rape?! What on earth?!! That's so offensive!

Many women have been brave and told their story's I've also shared please scroll back. I think the variety of stories robe the no clothes theory wrong!

But apparently according to some we should all stay at home in long cloaks and be scared of the night.

HouseWhereNobodyLives · 09/01/2015 16:09

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

morethanpotatoprints · 09/01/2015 16:16

wtf have I said its somebodies fault theyare raped if they don't take precautions.
I have said I prefer to be cautious and will raise my dd to be the same.
I argue that it isn't victim blaming to expect people to be responsible for minimising the risks.
Of course in an ideal world crime of ny sort wouldn't exist and we would be safe whatever we chose to do. wherever we chose to do it.
As we don't live in this utopia surely it is wise to act with caution to try to minimise the risks.

Fugacity · 09/01/2015 16:18

If we are talking about the Ched case, the girl went back to hotel room with his pal. She's giving out a message that she is up for it, even if that's the wrong message.

I think it is really important for young girls to make their intentions crystal clear, and not leave it to a drunk, testosterone-fuelled Young Man to figure it out.

Saying here that the girl did nothing wrong does not make up for the impact it has had on her life, where in a situation such as this particular one, it was probably avoidable had she made different choices.

It's a tragedy all round.

IonaMumsnet · 09/01/2015 16:19

We know we've posted this further upthread and we do hate to be a bore, but we thought now might be a good moment to remind folk again of our We Believe You campaign, one of the main pillars of which is to reassure victims of rape that it is never your fault.
www.mumsnet.com/campaigns/we-believe-you-mumsnet-rape-awareness-campaign

squoosh · 09/01/2015 16:19

'If we are talking about the Ched case, the girl went back to hotel room with his pal. She's giving out a message that she is up for it, even if that's the wrong message.'

Oh dear, maybe you should worry for your sons if that's how your mind works.

YvesJutteau · 09/01/2015 16:19

Teach sons about enthusiastic consent, and they won't struggle with "mixed messages". If there's anything even vaguely remotely mixed about a message, then it's not enthusiastic consent.

morethanpotatoprints · 09/01/2015 16:20

Yves

The comment about being disgusted about keeping knickers on came from somebody else right at the start of the thread.
ironically, the disgust was from somebody objecting to keeping knickers on, not taking them off.

Anyway, time for me to get on, because unless you believe we have no responsibility to try to keep ourselves safe, you are accused of victim blaming. I've never heard such bollocks tbh.

TheOriginalSteamingNit · 09/01/2015 16:20

Does going to a hotel with a man send the message you'd like his friend to come and rape you? Fuck.

YvesJutteau · 09/01/2015 16:21

"I have said I prefer to be cautious and will raise my dd to be the same. "

And that women who don't behave the same way as you are disgusting and have no morals. Don't forget that bit.

TheOriginalSteamingNit · 09/01/2015 16:21

I think it is really important for young girls to make their intentions crystal clear, and not leave it to a drunk, testosterone-fuelled Young Man to figure it out

If 'Young Men' as so fucking stupid when they're drunk and full of hormones that they can't be expected to understand words like 'yes' and 'no', they're the ones who shouldn't be walking around on their own or having a drink. Problem solved.

Pagwatch · 09/01/2015 16:22

You have a really depressingly dim view of men Fugacity.
You really think that a guy shagging a girl so drunk she can't say no is just something testosterone makes them do.

That is the saddest thing I have ever read on here. Your poor sons.

You need to go and sit in a dark room and think about what shit is swirling around in your head.

Hakluyt · 09/01/2015 16:22

No problem for people's sons really. Just tell them that they shouldn't have sex with people who haven't or cannot, for whatever reason, give consent.

Sorted.

Now, back to women.......

PenguinsandtheTantrumofDoom · 09/01/2015 16:22

Fugacity - If we are talking about the Ched case (which we weren't particularly), the man who she went back to the hotel with was acquitted. The rapist Ched Evans turned up at the hotel unannounced to her part way through.

I find these 'what about my poor son and mixed messages' arguments utterly confusing. I shall be teaching my son that, if he is receiving any form of mixed message then that is a NO. That you assume no consent unless you are very clear that you have enthusiastic consent. Because women aren't in a perpetual state of consent. The default is NO. And the worst that can happen is you miss one shag. The worst that can happen if you recklessly go ahead is that you are a rapist.

Nicknacky · 09/01/2015 16:23

Fugacity She was "up for it" in the sense that she had consensual sex with the first male. She wasn't "up for it" with the random that came through the door. And a female can want sex if she wants with whoever she wants. And not for anyone to presume that she will have sex with others because of that.

MonstrousRatbag · 09/01/2015 16:24

I think it is really important for young girls to make their intentions crystal clear, and not leave it to a drunk, testosterone-fuelled Young Man to figure it out

None of the people saying women should not get drunk has mentioned that maybe, just maybe, young men should avoid getting steaming drunk in case they rape somebody.

Blistory · 09/01/2015 16:25

Girls need to make it crystal clear ? Really ?

So we're back to women being the gate keepers and men just being so confused about when they can insert their penises that they might just as well do it anyway ?

What is tragic is your outdated, victim blaming views.

Newsflash : women can have sex whenever and wherever they want as long as the other party consents. It's not disgusting, it's not immoral.

Fugacity · 09/01/2015 16:25

Of course, Nick, and that's the conclusion the court came to.

Unfortunately, this has not been enough to enable the victim to get on with her life.

Hakluyt · 09/01/2015 16:26

"I think it is really important for young girls to make their intentions crystal clear, and not leave it to a drunk, testosterone-fuelled Young Man to figure it out."

So the fact that she is too drunk to say "yes" is too hard for him to understand? Jesus Christ...............

YvesJutteau · 09/01/2015 16:26

"She's giving out a message that she is up for it"

Going back to a hotel room with someone is NOT giving out a message that you are up for his friend who you've never met before letting himself into the room, having sex with you while you're virtually unconscious (while some other friends film it) and then exiting via the fire escape.

In fact, pretty much the only way in which you COULD give out the message that you are up for that is to explicitly say "Hello. I would like one of your friends who I've never met to let himself into the room and have sex with me while I'm virtually unconscious (while some other friends of yours film it)"

That's not exactly difficult to grasp, even if you are a Young Man with Testosterone.

HouseWhereNobodyLives · 09/01/2015 16:26

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

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