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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

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AIBU with this perspective on rape?

846 replies

TheOnlyWayThrough · 09/01/2015 11:24

Rape is vile and awful and always the rapists fault in its entirety. Of course it is, you'd be mad to disagree.

The bit I don't really get is the argument that women shouldn't need to take any responsibly for keeping themselves safe. The idea that women (and sometimes men) wouldn't be vulnerable if rapists didn't rape.

Well of course that is true, but that would be in an ideal world. And this certainly isn't one, so the point is moot surely? That principle could be applied to all walks of life where some people do inexplicably nasty things to others... which is basically ALL THE TIME. Some things are obviously worse than others, and rape is up there with the most obscene. It's not the only awful thing though.

You don't hear people saying that elderly people shouldn't need to have chains on their door for their own protection. And if someone forced their way into the home of someone elderly without a chain, I wouldn't for a second blame them/say they were asking for it. It's just that that a chain might have kept them a bit safer; that's why we have them.

A friend of mine was mugged walking home from work one night recently (it was about midnight). She wasn't hurt, but was of course shaken up and felt horribly violated. She won't be walking home again like that as it clearly isn't as safe as she thought. And I think that's sensible. But I don't feel that makes me a 'mugging apologist'. My friend wasn't at fault for the scummy thing that happened to her, but she DID put herself in a situation which wasn't very safe... and she got stung.

When I was burgled whilst sleeping I wished I'd have put the burglar alarm on as it might have stopped it from happening. I put it on every night now, rather than saying "I shouldn't have to; it's the burglars that shouldn't burgle".

Why is saying that it's a good idea to keep ourselves safe somehow misconstrued as mitigating rape in a way that doesn't seem to with other crimes? It's not intended that way, and it's not judging or blaming anyone who has been raped. It doesn't matter if you were drunk, half-naked, whatever - the crime was the rape and the victim did nothing wrong.

So is it unreasonable to think that in some situations, some ladies have put themselves in situations which weren't at all sensible and made them prey to scummy behaviour? And to think that that isn't the same thing as saying they are to blame or deserving of rape in any way?

(Just to add, this isn't about the Ched Evans case any more than any other particular case. And to anyone who has been a rape victim, I hope nothing I've said offends you, it certainly wasn't meant to. And I hope those who hurt you receive justice)

OP posts:
TheOriginalSteamingNit · 09/01/2015 15:42

What is wrong with having values where you discourage your daughter from having one night stands and getting so drunk they don't know what they are doing - nothing, it's just that it's got absolutely fuck-all to do with rape, has it?

YvesJutteau · 09/01/2015 15:42

Mmm. You see, morethan, you said that it was a "stupid suggestion" that any of this was victim blaming.

And yet you've just described women who choose a different pattern of sexual behaviour from you as "disgusting" and claimed that they have "no morals".

Doing a quick search back through the thread, in ten posts so far you've made no similar comments about rapists.

And I'm sure that you do think bad things about rapists too, and that you'll post again to assure us of that, but still... the instinct to criticise women because they don't behave in the way that you do and that you congratulate yourself about comes first, by the looks of things.

But it's a "stupid suggestion" to think that there's even the teensiest element of victim blaming in any of this?

ShiitakeMushrooms · 09/01/2015 15:43

I've been raped twice OP, both times I had been drinking BUT I didn't have a poster on my vagina saying 'I'm yours'.

I had been drinking are you saying that I shouldn't have because I put myself in a vulnerable position? The first time I was drugged and the second time I was raped in a limo that myself and friends hired for the night.

I think that your post is ridiculous maybe because you don't have any knowledge about how rape can destroy your life. I was wearing jeans, a long top and a coat and went out for a good time with friends, what should I have done? Sat at home to prevent myself from being raped?

A woman should be able to lay naked in a room with 100 men and women and not be raped, my body is my 'temple' in which you have to be invited to join me, mine has been ruined twice and it affects me everyday.

I'm going to leave before I get upset but your posts reads like men don't have self control so we as women should 'avoid' being raped. What a load of bollocks, you can't avoid being raped, if a person is going to rape they are going to rape.

I want to scream it's not my fault at people like you.

morethanpotatoprints · 09/01/2015 15:45

Can't b

Of course a ons isn't rape, but it could lead to rape and has done in a couple of cases i know.
I wasn't implying it was the only way that rape occurs obviously, otherwise we wouldn't hear of all the other situations.

A young woman I met a few years ago told me how she had been at a party with friends, got off with a man, told her friends she was going to another party with this man, he drugged her, took her to a flat with other men and gang raped her.
She was 18 when it happened and I met her at 21, she told me how after everything she went through the worst parts were telling her parents and wishing she hadn't put herself in that position.
This is how she felt.

TheOriginalSteamingNit · 09/01/2015 15:48

If a home-owner leaves the door unlocked and something gets nicked, the burglar is not able to claim that he didn't steal it, or that the homeowner wanted it nicked, are they? Or that they 'could have any DVD player they wanted', since they're a big shot of some kind (RCE). Or that they 'deeply regret any upset caused by the events of that night', particularly to their girlfriend, who doesn't own the house but whose DVD player they should have been using instead (RCE).

Locking your door, looking when you cross the road, hiding your iPhone - all are utterly incomparable to locking your body. Which, as I'm sure even morethan with her ignorant and offensive touching faith in a pair of knickers and a good moral compass as ways to fend off rapists, must surely realise.

Willferrellisactuallykindahot · 09/01/2015 15:48

You think that avoiding one night stands will give you the same level of protection against rape as taking the pill does against pregnancy?

Oh dear...........

Canyouforgiveher · 09/01/2015 15:48

Of course a ons isn't rape, but it could lead to rape and has done in a couple of cases i know.

Marriage quite often leads to rape too and has done in more than one case I know ... but I won't be discouraging my children from marriage for that reason.

Hakluyt · 09/01/2015 15:49

"She was 18 when it happened and I met her at 21, she told me how after everything she went through the worst parts were telling her parents and wishing she hadn't put herself in that position.
This is how she felt."

Yep-that's how a culture of victim blaming makes women who have been raped feel. Maybe you think she should have kept her knickers on?

TheOriginalSteamingNit · 09/01/2015 15:49

Well Morethan, I'd like to think you reassured her that on no account should she hold herself responsible or feel any guilt about what happened... but I'm not over-confident.

AllBoxedUp · 09/01/2015 15:53

Not read the full thread but if someone barged into an old ladies house and assualted her I doubt the media would even mention whether she had used a door chain let alone make a big deal of it. To me that is the difference.

Blistory · 09/01/2015 15:54

What's wrong with a one night stand ? There's more honesty about 2 adults consenting to sex than a woman pretending to be modest for a couple of dates just because she thinks she should or that society will judge her.

Pagwatch · 09/01/2015 15:54

Good grief.

I'm waiting for my 12 year old DD to come home from school. The idea that some women believe that if she gets really drunk, or has a one night stand she is in some way partially culpable if someone rapes her, is horrifying.

Equally, the idea of my 21 year old son admitting in court to arriving,at his mates beckoning, at a hotel room to shag a teenage girl, so drunk she is unable to stand while his mates filmed it is so repulsive I don't know how Ched Evans parents can function.

I hope the women suggesting that young women have a responsibility to protect themselves are not passing those views on to their sons.

Does anyone here imagine their son will one day think that is ok? I would spend the rest of my life wondering how we had fucked up parenting so badly.

Bulbasaur · 09/01/2015 15:54

I walked in unsafe areas to get home. I lived in an unsafe area. While it may not be surprising for the area, I still didn't deserve to have someone break into my home.

The problem with this is that you assume all rapes involve alcohol. They don't. Most rapes are from a DP while they're in a relationship with them. Are you saying women shouldn't ever date other men?

Jessica85 · 09/01/2015 15:55

Of course a ons isn't rape, but it could lead to rape and has done in a couple of cases i know.

The only person who has ever spoken to me IRL about being raped was a woman whose husband had raped her. I've also had more than one ons and never been raped. Perhaps we should be warning young girls to not get married, but to have a ons instead.

fromparistoberlin73 · 09/01/2015 15:58

Pagwatch

A very good summary of why a certain footballer riles me so. So so true . Got rage again now !

GlitzAndGigglesx · 09/01/2015 15:58

Marriage quite often leads to rape too and has done in more than one case I know ... but I won't be discouraging my children from marriage for that reason.

Exactly! You can try and keep yourself safe, but clearly from reading through many of the victims on this threads own rapes, it's easier said than done. The predators don't really give a flying fuck what you look like or what you're wearing or if you're drunk or sober. They have no respect for women

Fugacity · 09/01/2015 15:59

I agree with the OP (haven't RTFT yet).

It does not make the rapist any less guilty, but taking personal precautions make the victim less likely to be you. Someone else might become the victim or the potential rapist might not find another opportunity.

I do not understand why young girls go out wearing next to nothing, and then get steaming drunk. I hope my daughters never do that, because I never want them to be the victim of a crime. I hope my sons never have to interpret horrible mixed messages.

NoArmaniNoPunani · 09/01/2015 16:00

I think some women like to believe there are precautions they can take against rape so they can tell themselves it won't happen to them.

'I don't wear thongs, I don't drink too much, I don't smile at men i don't know'.

Bollocks. The only reason I was raped was because I had the misfortune to be in the presence of a rapist who felt like raping me.

MothershipG · 09/01/2015 16:01

morethan
^She was 18 when it happened and I met her at 21, she told me how after everything she went through the worst parts were telling her parents and wishing she hadn't put herself in that position.
This is how she felt.^

And that will be how she felt because she knows that people like you label her as 'disgusting' for having a ONS and are blaming her for being raped. Sad

Jessica85 · 09/01/2015 16:01

worst parts were telling her parents and wishing she hadn't put herself in that position

So the worst parts were about blaming herself and how other people might feel. Perhaps part of the reason she felt like that was all this bullshit about women being responsible for protecting themselves from rape and not enough said about the fact that rape is ALWAYS the fault of the rapist and categorically NOT the fault of the victim.

TheOriginalSteamingNit · 09/01/2015 16:01

What 'horrible mixed messages' Fugacity? 'I want to be raped'/'I don't want to be raped' OH IT'S ALL SO CONFUSING!

Jessica85 · 09/01/2015 16:05

I hope my sons never have to interpret horrible mixed messages

Maybe teach them to not have sex unless the woman absolutely says 'yes'. How hard is it to understand?! It is only consent if the woman absolutely says 'yes'.

Pagwatch · 09/01/2015 16:05

Fugacity

Try not to worry. Hopefully you will raise a son intelligent enough to construct a sentence which includes some variation of the question 'would you like to have sex' and able to spot the difference between 'yes please' and 'thanks awfully but no'

It might also help if he considers shagging a really, really drunk woman less than attractive.

MothershipG · 09/01/2015 16:06

I hope my sons never have to interpret horrible mixed messages.

Argh! Really??? It's not rocket science! My DS isn't the brightest spark, bless him, but I know he'll have absolutely no difficulty understanding the difference between enthusiastic consent and thinking that being drunk and wearing a short skirt means consent to sex with any random with a penis!!!

Blistory · 09/01/2015 16:07

Fugacity

I hope your sons never rape. If you teach them what rape is and how not to be a rapist then you won't need to worry about 'mixed messages' or them raping.

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