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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

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Original poster

AIBU with this perspective on rape?

846 replies

TheOnlyWayThrough · 09/01/2015 11:24

Rape is vile and awful and always the rapists fault in its entirety. Of course it is, you'd be mad to disagree.

The bit I don't really get is the argument that women shouldn't need to take any responsibly for keeping themselves safe. The idea that women (and sometimes men) wouldn't be vulnerable if rapists didn't rape.

Well of course that is true, but that would be in an ideal world. And this certainly isn't one, so the point is moot surely? That principle could be applied to all walks of life where some people do inexplicably nasty things to others... which is basically ALL THE TIME. Some things are obviously worse than others, and rape is up there with the most obscene. It's not the only awful thing though.

You don't hear people saying that elderly people shouldn't need to have chains on their door for their own protection. And if someone forced their way into the home of someone elderly without a chain, I wouldn't for a second blame them/say they were asking for it. It's just that that a chain might have kept them a bit safer; that's why we have them.

A friend of mine was mugged walking home from work one night recently (it was about midnight). She wasn't hurt, but was of course shaken up and felt horribly violated. She won't be walking home again like that as it clearly isn't as safe as she thought. And I think that's sensible. But I don't feel that makes me a 'mugging apologist'. My friend wasn't at fault for the scummy thing that happened to her, but she DID put herself in a situation which wasn't very safe... and she got stung.

When I was burgled whilst sleeping I wished I'd have put the burglar alarm on as it might have stopped it from happening. I put it on every night now, rather than saying "I shouldn't have to; it's the burglars that shouldn't burgle".

Why is saying that it's a good idea to keep ourselves safe somehow misconstrued as mitigating rape in a way that doesn't seem to with other crimes? It's not intended that way, and it's not judging or blaming anyone who has been raped. It doesn't matter if you were drunk, half-naked, whatever - the crime was the rape and the victim did nothing wrong.

So is it unreasonable to think that in some situations, some ladies have put themselves in situations which weren't at all sensible and made them prey to scummy behaviour? And to think that that isn't the same thing as saying they are to blame or deserving of rape in any way?

(Just to add, this isn't about the Ched Evans case any more than any other particular case. And to anyone who has been a rape victim, I hope nothing I've said offends you, it certainly wasn't meant to. And I hope those who hurt you receive justice)

OP posts:
TheOriginalSteamingNit · 09/01/2015 11:31

YABU.

'It's a good idea to keep ourselves safe' is a stupid thing to say. You're coming out with all this fluffy drivel about 'ladies', and equating a woman's body with an unlocked house, which is a problem in itself, but I don't believe you're half as well-meaning and wide-eyed as you claim, when you say that

in some situations, some ladies have put themselves in situations which weren't at all sensible and made them prey to scummy behaviour

You don't 'put yourself in a situation' through not being 'sensible' - the situation is, someone raped you. Your language of volition is misleading, wrong and troubling.

Bogeyface · 09/01/2015 11:33

The problem with that view is that it is a very short step from "It happens, be aware of it and try to keep yourself safe" to "It was your own fault, you shouldnt have been there/worn that/done this" victim blaming.

It is the attitude that if a woman is wearing a revealing outfit or walking alone at night then she shouldnt be surprised to be raped that has led to such appalling conviction rates.

Whilst I am aware that rape is a risk and therefore do what I can to mitigate that risk by doing things such as not using unlicensed taxis, avoiding situations where I may not feel completely safe, being aware of my surroundings and watching my drink at all times etc, I do not accept that if a woman doesnt take those precautions and is raped, that she holds any responsibility for it.

morethanpotatoprints · 09/01/2015 11:33

I think you are right.
When I was growing up a girl was raped on a path near to my house.
It gained the name "The Black path" because it wasn't lit and there were lots of hiding places for people to lurk.
Our parents warned us not to walk unaccompanied along this path and as far as I know 30 years later it still has the same name and reputation, nothing has happened on the path since.

As a parent of a daughter I'm instilling the value of keeping your knickers on and not getting so drunk you don't know what you are doing. To be safe out at night and to act responsibly.
You can't stop crime of any sort but you can make it harder for the criminals and not be a sitting duck.

After a speight of pick pockets in our local Morrisons every day at old peoples shopping time, there is an announcement telling them to keep their purses safe. This shouldn't have to be the norm, but it is because old people are a target.

FarelyKnuts · 09/01/2015 11:33

Because how can you tell which action will stop it happening? How many freedoms can you curb until you are "safe"?
The only reliable indicator that you will be raped is being in the presence of a rapist. Of which 90% are known to you already, partner, friend, father, brother, workmate etc.
Rape happens in day light, in homes, to women fully dressed and sober etc etc. There is no behaviour that will keep women safe and telling them that instead of tackling men for BEING rapists is where the problem lies.

Bogeyface · 09/01/2015 11:35

As an mner put on another thread when someone said to her that CE's victim put herself in a vulnerable situation, if men didnt rape then it wouldnt have been a vulnerable situation.

harryhausen · 09/01/2015 11:35

I think I tend to agree with how you've written it.

When I was a student nearly 20 years ago it was very common for everyone to carry rape alarms. It think this was sensible. It didn't mean that it would stop a rape or mean it was our fault if we forgot the alarm etc. Just a precaution.

I do worry about my ds and my dd getting hugely drunk and not knowing who they are with. I think I worry more for my ds.

HouseWhereNobodyLives · 09/01/2015 11:36

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

TooOldForGlitter · 09/01/2015 11:36

You can't compare a woman going about her daily business with not locking up valuables, or putting on a burglar alarm. A vagina is not property, it's not a car, it's not a flashy necklace. "Ladies" can't lock up their vaginas in order to prevent RAPISTS from raping them. HTH.

MinceSpy · 09/01/2015 11:37

I think you are going to get flamed on here. I also think you make some very good points.

HouseWhereNobodyLives · 09/01/2015 11:38

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

slug · 09/01/2015 11:38

Why do you worry so much for your DS? He is far more likely to be hit by lightening than be raped or falsely accused of rape.

Your DD on the other hand....

angelohsodelight · 09/01/2015 11:39

YANBU .... personal responsibility has to be a factor to a degree.

HouseWhereNobodyLives · 09/01/2015 11:39

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

TooOldForGlitter · 09/01/2015 11:39

oh, and every single time someone says something like this it perpetuates the idea that somehow these poor silly men just can't help themselves. If a drunk woman hadn't walked past them at 2 am in a short skirt well then they'd have just gone home and gone to bed would they? It was only the silly woman putting herself at risk that caused this otherwise lovely man to rape her? Utter bullshit.

Grumpyoldblonde · 09/01/2015 11:42

You will be flamed but in many respects I agree, simple things - I will not walk on my own late at night, I will call a cab company I know, I wont get totally drunk and wander off with men I don't ,just as I wont walk around with my bag open and my purse on show or leave my front door open all night or my car unlocked with my laptop in view and will bring my daughter up with these basic safety precautions.

Writerwannabe83 · 09/01/2015 11:43

I sort of see what you mean. However, the only sensible precaution I can think of is not walking round at night on your own.

All the other factors: alcohol and clothes etc aren't an issue as they aren't factors which mean a woman is asking for rape. A rapist will rape sober women in jeans just as much as they would a drunk lady in heels I imagine.

And of course there's the issue of rape within relationships, marriages and between family members - that can't be protected against.

Rapusts don't carry around a sign saying "I am a rapist" and women can't avoid all males just in case they are one. Nor should they have to amend their lifestyle choices or fashion sense to stop them attracting rapists. Women have the right not to be raped regardless of what they are doing or wearing.

Rape is always the knowing choice of the rapist. A woman is never to blame in any circumstances where a man makes the decision to rape her.

MorrisZapp · 09/01/2015 11:43

Fwiw I pretty much agree with you, but I think we need to take rape out of the equation when it comes to teaching kids to be safe. It's normal and fine to drum into small children safety messages about crossing roads etc, and as they get older these messages change to being safe at night, being with friends, not getting too drunk to get home safely etc. Violent crime and muggings etc happen on our street every day. All young people should be taught how to be aware of their surroundings etc.

However, if you turn this into a rape message it will anger many people as the advice is only given to women, which seems sexist and unfair. So keep it neutral, and free from gender bias. Everybody needs to learn street smarts.

I was in a few very dodgy situations in my young and daft days, and looking back I could have avoided them. If I had a daughter I would tell her all about these situations and hope she would absorb some of it. I can't see how any responsible parent wouldn't.

LaurieFairyCake · 09/01/2015 11:43

The most danger a woman is at risk of is from her own relatives, her partner or male relative being the most likely.

So don't be born, don't get married, don't live with anyone

Don't walk alone, don't get drunk, don't go to parties, don't go out at night.

Get chains for your doors and seven point locking systems.

can you imagine if anyone suggested men do the above?

DuelingFanjo · 09/01/2015 11:44

A woman's body isn't a door.

A woman's body isn't a wallet

A woman's body isn't a house

Why do you think that a woman's body should be viewed as all these things but a man's body should not?

HouseWhereNobodyLives · 09/01/2015 11:45

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

MorrisZapp · 09/01/2015 11:46

I'm not sure I agree about the alcohol. If I was sober, I wouldn't go home with a man I didn't know. But when drunk, I've done that more than once. Doesn't make him less responsible for any actions he then takes, but the situation wouldn't have come up to begin with if I hadn't been drunk. That's just the fact of it, not a judgement.

HouseWhereNobodyLives · 09/01/2015 11:47

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

AMumInScotland · 09/01/2015 11:47

The problem isn't that we aren't allowed to say "There are reasonable steps you could take to reduce the probability"

The problem is that so many websites and organisations publish lists which come across as "You MUST do these things and MUST NOT do these other things because it is YOUR RESPONSIBILITY to avoid putting yourself at risk"

Any discussion of rape where the focus is on women's behaviour is insulting. I have never met anybody who says "Don't give a moment's thought to your personal safety"

TooOldForGlitter · 09/01/2015 11:47

By default does this then mean that women who do go off with men they have just met in a bar, or do walk home alone at 2.00 am after 10 cocktails, then deserve the rape? Because they didn't take steps to prevent themselves from being raped by a rapist?

I am going to have to step off this thread. I can't believe people still peddle this kind of shit in the year 2015.

MoveAlongNothingtoSeeHere · 09/01/2015 11:48

Your post is sensible. You can reduce (a bit) the probability of being raped, although clearly shouldn't have to. Whether people should take steps to reduce the probability, or whether it's "a good idea" for society at large if individuals try to reduce their personal risks, is not something that's easy to answer.

However, on IABU you will get lots of very "black and white" YABU/YANBU responses, and this is a very complex issue which isn't served well by "yes" and "no".