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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

WIBU to consider writing to every man in the world

686 replies

TheRealAmandaClarke · 08/01/2015 13:50

To inform them all (probably leave Dh out of the round robin) that I do not want to have sex with them unless and until further formal notice from me?

As it seems that there is such confusion among so many people about the nature of consent I want to avoid putting any of them in the terribly awkward position of wondering whether simply being in the same room as them means they are invited to stick their dick in me.
So is that an unreasonable proposition?

OP posts:
PetulaGordino · 11/01/2015 21:10

i'm trying to find that one yonic as we speak, but can't find where i bookmarked it

BuffytheReasonableFeminist · 11/01/2015 21:13

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

PetulaGordino · 11/01/2015 21:15

yes, that's it! thank you

must learn to organise my references Wink

BuffytheReasonableFeminist · 11/01/2015 21:17

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

YonicSleighdriver · 11/01/2015 21:17

Thank you Buffy, that's the one Flowers

BoneyBackJefferson · 11/01/2015 21:18

YonicSleighdriver
"Boney, that is not what the OP assumes, even as a thought experiment."

I didn't say that she did, I said "I have been in classrooms, off timetable days etc. where this is the default starting point".

The op asked "what would be an acceptable way to talk to men about rape?"

I also assumed that the op meant women and men talking about rape, not just women.

MoreBeta · 11/01/2015 21:19

Yonic - yes like that but it needs to be even harder hitting.

Petula - my sons are 12 and 14 and many of you have sons too. My sons sometimes say things that display an assumption about girls I want to challenge and I do. They go a to a naice private school and had all the PSHE lessons etc and the things I am challenging are not horrendous but just stuff they picked up in the changing room from other boys.

I don't think the stuff they get in PSHE is completely hitting the mark. I think 'men' do need a letter of sorts. I want my sons to listen to me and they do generally and I think schools, colleges, society need to reinforce it whenever we can in ways that will be listened to.

What we have tried so far doesn't seem to have worked. Isn't it worthwhile trying to understand how men think about this issue and targeting ways to challenge their assumptions?

PetulaGordino · 11/01/2015 21:21

i'm sure it is, but it's placing the sole responsibility on women that was objectionable

TheFriar · 11/01/2015 21:24

I'm always surprised that the default position ISN'T that a woman isn't consenting to sex and you first have to get consent/approval from her before taking it further.

I'm also Confused as to what 'men' are told that makes them automatically potential rapists. Because if it is
'You just get consent before having sex. If you gave sex with a woman and she isn't or can't consent then it's rape.'
Then I'm wondering what we are suppose to tell men.

Maybe the posters who thought women are all seen men as potential realists could enlightened me???

TheFriar · 11/01/2015 21:27

And YY to the fact that's it should men and women who are addressing the issue together.

BuffytheReasonableFeminist · 11/01/2015 21:28

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

MaMaMarmoset · 11/01/2015 21:43

I often say "do you like that", "would you like me to...", "do you want to...", "is that nice". Saying those, and getting "mmm, yes" for an answer is sexy. It doesn't have to be a passion killer!

Yes, I think we need to have a campaign that shows consent can be sexy. You get twat bags who try and push this agenda that they need to get permission in triplicate because they don't want to admit that they can't/won't make sex even slightly interesting for the woman so accept anything they can get.

TheFriar · 11/01/2015 21:46

buffy I agree re the patriarchal views that are appearing in the general PSHE lessons.
One of the reasons is that we are so used to it that we don't even notice.

The other reason is that no one is generally happy to take on responsibilities they didn't have before. So before it was up to women to make it clear they didn't want sex (eg in court, it was, maybe still us, asked to the woman if she had said NO clearly). Starting with opposite assumption, that the woman doesn't want sex, puts the responsibility squarely on the man's shoulders.

MaMaMarmoset · 11/01/2015 21:47

While you are at it, why not write to all Muslims telling them not to storm buildings with guns? After all, sitting at a desk writing a cartoon seems to some Muslims to indicate consent to being gunned down by them.Or would that be stupid and offensive? Like the OP

I had no idea that 1 out of 5 Britons were being shot by Muslims. BY lots and lots and thousand upon fucking thousands of Muslims. Someone should deal with that.

But no, it's just 1 in 5 women being attacked. By men. Fucking thousands of men.

I guarantee if 1 out 5 men were being raped you wouldn't be horrified about the wording of the OP.

YonicSleighdriver · 11/01/2015 21:52

Has there ever, anywhere or anywhen, been a woman who jumped out of bed in disgust mid-caress, because the man she was with whispered, "are you sure this is OK?"

MaMaMarmoset · 11/01/2015 21:52

oh and to whoever said women have to learn to talk to men so they listen about rape. Seriously that's so offensive.

Go tell a black man he needs to ask white people nicely to not call him nigger.

This OP wasn't designed to talk to rapist about rape. It was a satirical comment to a group of MOSTLY women about rape myths. Who are you to police it?

MoreBeta · 11/01/2015 21:59

"But I think that most of the 'messages' and PSHE lessons and whatever are designed with a patriarchal view of sexuality."

Well if that is true then it needs changing.

TheFriar - yes of course men and women need to address this. We need a proper conversation between men and women. Not like this thread turned out.

Only a man can rape a woman. Only women can truly explain the issue from their perspective. They have to talk to men about it. They have to talk in a way that men will listen to so they understand. Men who understand can make other men understand.

TheCowThatLaughs · 11/01/2015 22:02

"Don't rape us"

Micksy · 11/01/2015 22:03

Aibu to be concerned? My neighbors wife sent me a formal looking letter warning me that she did not consent to sex. I've only met her twice. Why would she possibly do that? Now I can't look at her without thinking that she thinks I am planning to rape her. Or maybe she is planning to frame me for rape? I just don't know, but it's making me lose sleep. What's going on in her head to make her write me a letter like that?

TheCowThatLaughs · 11/01/2015 22:08

How about this? Just to make it absolutely clear

WIBU to consider writing to every man in the world
MaMaMarmoset · 11/01/2015 22:14

yes of course men and women need to address this. We need a proper conversation between men and women. Not like this thread turned out.

What is the appropriate way to speak to men about not raping?

BoneyBackJefferson · 11/01/2015 22:19

There have been few good rape campaigns aimed at men.

Don't be that guy (as pp)
the advert where the man/teenager stands the opposite side of a glass window.
and there was a real men don't rape campaign.

these campaigns (IMHO) had several things in common, they have listened to women, spoke to men and where very clearly defined.

TheCowThatLaughs
if you really want to stop men from listening that would be a very good way to do it.

BuffytheReasonableFeminist · 11/01/2015 22:24

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

GallicIsCharlie · 11/01/2015 22:31

What's going on in her head to make her write me a letter like that?

Life. Life is going on in her head. Life that says it's OK for men, whether she knows them or not, to comment on her sexual characteristics and to make sexual suggestions. Life that accepts men grab women's bums & boobs in crowded social situations. Life that acts offended if she shows her dislike of leering innuendo from workmates and acquaintances. Life that treats her, in short, like a piece of fuckmeat and gets cross if she objects. The same life you live in, yet your life is not publicly appropriated as a sex toy for common use. The life that will seek to prove she had not withdrawn consent, should she be raped. Even though she never consented in the first place.

Perhaps she's just asking you to think about this.

scallopsrgreat · 11/01/2015 22:32

Are you not understanding MoreBeta or something? You are a man, spread the word. You can rephrase to your heart's content then. Maybe you won't mind repeating it ad nauseum in as many different ways as possible. Or maybe because you are a man people will listen. Lets face it, that is more likely.

Or perhaps men should tell us what they don't understand about penetrating someone else's body with their penis without consent. Because it seems pretty straightforward to me.

If in doubt ask. In fact even if you aren't in doubt, ask.

But rapists don't give a shit about consent. CE demonstrates that to perfection. He gave not one flying fuck to his victim's state of mind. And still he is unable to see what he did was wrong. And he's not alone. A frightening number of men and boys agree with him. We aren't talking a handful. The sense of entitlement is huge.

This generation is lost tbh. They have already learnt the lessons society and other men want to give them. It's the toddlers of today and tomorrow. PHSE classes are very important with that. As is better media reporting, education within judicial systems etc etc.

It is incredibly insulting, though, to suggest that women don't tell men, in many many different ways about consent, about rape, about being human, with feelings and desires and needs. We do all the time. And a number of women on this thread have said it is insulting so why do you feel the need to reiterate the point again and again and insult us even further, MoreBeta.

This is not a case of women not explaining properly but of men not listening. And you are illustrating that to perfection.