WIBU to consider writing to every man in the world

[TheRealAmandaClarke]

To inform them all (probably leave Dh out of the round robin) that I do not want to have sex with them unless and until further formal notice from me?

As it seems that there is such confusion among so many people about the nature of consent I want to avoid putting any of them in the terribly awkward position of wondering whether simply being in the same room as them means they are invited to stick their dick in me.
So is that an unreasonable proposition?

Genuine question, Pan - if you're walking down a dark street at night behind a lone woman, are you aware that she might be scared ? Do you do anything to minimise her alarm ?

Because most men are aware - which means they're aware that she might consider them a risk. And they're probably aware that the risk is rape or assault. Now even though those individual men are aware that they won't harm her, they don't take offence at the risk assessment that they know most women make in those circumstances.

Shouldn't the offense be saved for those men who do rape and are that ones that cause, men as a class, to be something that women have to risk assess ?

And yes, I know the dark street assault is the one we probably have less to fear but it's still the general stereotype.

Blistory - I didn't say I was offended, for the good reason you indicate. I'm not mithered, personally. That doesn't stop the op being widely insulting. Do you see the difference?

I don't think anyone can argue that most rapes are perpetrated by men but that most men are not rapists. It's the same with Muslims and terrorism at the moment.

I don't think its hard to know when consent is there and when it isn't, even with the lack of verbal cues. Rapists know when there is no consent but they don't care, it's a power thing. If someone is too wasted to give consent, you don't have sex with them. Really there is no grey area, it's simple actually.

As for Harvey, his mum puts him in the public spotlight so he and his mum are game. To be honest iwhat was said wasnt really that bad if you take it as a joke. Harvey isn't really going to rape his mother.

I used to dislike Frankie Boyles humour but it is in fact brilliant. He slags off people at his shows as well with equally taboo remarks. They are just jokes and he is a comedian. Watch him on Netflix.

Nope, sorry.

It would only be insulting if there wasn't an underlying truth to it, imo. Again it's about the lived experiences of women - if rape myths didn't exist, if the threat of sexual assault wasn't so real, it would be unreasonable but the risks clearly do exist.

Voila! Let's just look at Zippey's extremely dubious attitudes to consent here! The woman who was so offended on behalf of men on account of the OP has just said that an eight or nine year old boy is "game" for jokes about how he is a rapist because his mother (clue: his mother is a different person) puts him in the public eye.

It's not that bad to accuse someone of rape, "if you take it as a joke", apparently.

TheCow sobering reading here about male rape as a weapon of war: www.theguardian.com/society/2011/jul/17/the-rape-of-men

And of course that doesn't make assumed consent acceptable, not trying to derail the OP.

got to lol at people on a thread that is a"joke" or "ironic" being offended by someone finding rape jokes funny.
the irony in it
(disclaimer I hate fb AND think he is a disablist wanker)

Could you pop my name on the bottom of the letter too please, ta ever so!

[Right I'm off to banish poverty now you've done rape]

amanda you are right to think highly of yourself - I think highly of you too! I'm sure that your DP, like mine, will clarify if he has the slightest doubt that I am consenting to sex, or withdrawing my consent at any time, even if I have provocatively gone to bed in my best pyjamas. A lot of men pressure women into sex and have sex with women that are probably too drunk to consent, I would say it's pretty much socially acceptable which might be what is touching such a nerve. It used to be acceptable to get in a car totally hammered, it is possible to change attitudes about responsibility for your actions through posts like yours. But maybe not among footballers.

Pan, seriously?

samcro

Your lolling is your personal business. Personally, I don't see any irony in pointing out Zippey's hypocrisy, or querying this phenomenon of how so many people only want to protect certain men's rights. It's almost as if the anti-sexism movement has been co-opted to protect the privileges of the most privileged group in society! Nah, that could never happen...

The OP is addressing "all men" (or indeed all people) in the way these posters do:

www.theviolencestopshere.ca/dbtg.php

How can you on one hand claim that consent must be positively given and cannot be simply inferred, then also claim that non-verbal clues are enough?

What??? Non-verbal clues that imply consent include guiding somebody else's penis into one's own body, freely and enthusiastically. This can also be done verbally, freely & enthusiastically. That's all you need to know.

I had to the read the OP twice to 'get it' but I do understand what she is saying.

I'm gobsmacked by all the people saying 'don't send it to my partner/son/father/brother because they would never do something like that.

How many partners (mothers etc.) of rapists say to the police "oh yes, I always knew he was a rapist, this doesn't come as a shock"?!

With a few very twisted exceptions (e.g. Rose West) they will react with horror and, most likely, disbelief. You will get friends and neighbours queuing up to tell the press how he was a normal man, was kind to kittens and helped old ladies across the road. You will get women like CE's girlfriend flat out refusing to believe it and standing by them. How can the women on here be so damn sure that their loved ones would never do such a thing?

Nobody wants to think that a person they love could/would rape someone but it still happens all over the world each and every day.

(apologies if someone has already covered this)

It's almost as if the anti-sexism movement has been co-opted to protect the privileges of the most privileged group in society!

I want my white male privilege of unlikely to face sexual assault protected, and even extended if possible to "have nothing to fear at all", of course I want to the same for everyone, in the world regardless of gender, sexuality, race, colour, nationality, religion, political viewpoint etc.

The ability to not rape people is not a finite resource, (once I get through my day of not raping people today I'll start a whole new day of not assaulting people tomorrow.)

I'm sure that your DP, like mine, will clarify if he has the slightest doubt that I am consenting to sex, or withdrawing my consent at any time, even if I have provocatively gone to bed in my best pyjamas.
You're not really getting it. a lot of victims of domestic abuse, violence and sexual assault and rape in the home, just don't see it coming.

They think that they won't end up in that statistic, until they do.

And their husbands don't actually realise that they are rapists, because actually their wife wasn't really in the mood but just went along with it, or didn't say anything, and non-verbal clues and cues weren't enough.

Best example I can think here, if it's a cold night and my wife or I wears thick pyjamas to bed it doesn't mean its not going to happen, if it's a hot summers night and either of us sleep naked that doesn't mean it's definitely going to happen.

This is a complex issue that can't and won't be solved by just saying "My partner and I are in tune and it won't happen to me, he can just tell if I'm not in the mood" or by just telling men that they have a problem.

I'm really sorry that you read it like that, perhaps it was clumsy and a bit glib, it was in response to equating a mini skirt to a non-verbal cue within a relationship. What I meant was that checking consent can and should happen, there is no excuse for a man claiming implied consent, and that if in doubt the onus is on them to check consent is in place whether in a relationship or not, which most men manage perfectly adequately. I'm not suggesting it can't happen to me or the OP, I can see why it came across like that; I have definitely seen the worse side of some men's characters in that respect.

What??? Non-verbal clues that imply consent include guiding somebody else's penis into one's own body, freely and enthusiastically. This can also be done verbally, freely & enthusiastically. That's all you need to know.

Yes, they include, but I'm assuming that's far from a definitive list, and one persons non-verbal clues are different from another's.
Have you and your partner sat and worked out an exhaustive list? or are you trusting that he'll figure it out?

If you sit in bed naked and beckon your partner to come to bed, in the most sexual way that you can imagine, is that an invitation for him to "come to bed for sex" or an request to come to bed because you've had a hard day and just want to be close to him. (which you may or may not have discussed throughout the evening?)

If you're in bed during the day is it because you are in the mood and want your partner to join you? or is it because you want a nap?

If you wear sexy clothes to bed, is it to titillate your partner and signal to them in a non-verbal way that you want sex? Is it because you want to feel sexy yourself (though not actually have sexy), or is it because that thing that you wear that does it for him was the last clean thing that you had to wear to bed and one of you really must do the laundry in the morning?

Do you understand how it may be easy for your husband to think that you being naked and telling him to come to bed might be a sign that he thinks you want sex?, then when he does come to bed, and "tries it on", What he thinks could be foreplay is actually sexual assault?

Lots of situations may be interoperated in lots of different ways.

Yes, I would take the act of you guiding your partners penis inside you as you consenting to sex. however that is an extreme example.

Does this change if you've been drinking? or taking drugs? does that depend on how much you've been drinking, the difference between a glass of wine and a bottle of wine for example? is there a line? 1 or 2 glasses of wine with a meal is a romantic evening that may end in consensual sex, 2 or 3 (which is most of a bottle) is an excessive evening that may end in rape?

It would also be easy for the husband in notauniquename' post to respond to his wife saying "no" or "not tonight I just want a cuddle" or whatever, and there would be no problem and no sexual assault or rape unless he then decided to rape her.

Women aren't just waiting for a chance to catch men out and accuse them of rape, they just want not to be raped, it's not hard to understand and not hard not to rape anyone. Most men manage to live their lives without ever raping anyone.

And I hope the best pyjamas comment was seen as ironic and trying to make the point that I think you made more eloquently. I am in horror at anyone taking that at face value.

It was obviously ironic Alice

Women aren't just waiting for a chance to catch men out and accuse them of rape
I didn't suggest that they were...

The problem arises when for a variety of reason, women feel that they can't say no, then they are being raped, but feel that they somehow gave their consent because there is a marriage certificate.
Their husbands often don't realise that they are rapists either.

And this can be anything from a woman who has previously suffered DV who thinks that saying no would lead to more, (even when out of the original violent relationships.)

To a woman who just has a lower libido to her partner, and he makes a big deal about it until she gives in.

Not all rapes are by strangers, (in fact (statistically) surprisingly few are)
Not all rapes are violent.
Not all women (or men) who are raped by men fully understand how or why they got into that situation, (because most people imagine rape as this big crime watch style screen play involving a dark alley and a balaclava, whereas for most, rape takes place inside the family home)
Not all men who are having sex with a woman realise that she doesn't really want to consent, - i.e not all men even realise that they are rapists or have raped.

Just because not all rapes are horrific incidents it doesn't make them less important.

I do think that although men in that kind of situation may not choose to see themselves as rapists, they are actually aware that they're doing something unwanted to their partner, but they just don't care.