WIBU to consider writing to every man in the world

[TheRealAmandaClarke]

To inform them all (probably leave Dh out of the round robin) that I do not want to have sex with them unless and until further formal notice from me?

As it seems that there is such confusion among so many people about the nature of consent I want to avoid putting any of them in the terribly awkward position of wondering whether simply being in the same room as them means they are invited to stick their dick in me.
So is that an unreasonable proposition?

That's the least of your worries...

Hopefully he'll be able to work out that it's nothing personal

I don't think that most people do think those things about rape actually. We may not all know the exact stats on each type of rape, we may fear some kinds more than others, but most people understand that there are a variety of situations in which rape takes place. Not least because almost all women will have experienced situations themselves where they were at imminent risk of being coerced, or forced, into sexual activity by people they knew, whether they ultimately ended in rape or not. I would be interested to understand rape within relationships better though, since many of us do feel safe in this context - are there risk factors that we should be aware of, such as existing violence within the relationship?

I'd just been reading the rather depressing "perspective on rape" thread where so many people still just can't grasp the concept of protecting yourself/victim blaming and then clicked into this one.

I was surprised and even further depressed at the volume of people who didn't get/misinterpreted it.

Amanda (real or otherwise) Add me to your letter/email/t-shirt/whatever.

I do think that although men in that kind of situation may not choose to see themselves as rapists, they are actually aware that they're doing something unwanted to their partner, but they just don't care.

In the event that they nag their partners for sex, I agree. they are aware that their partner doesn't want it therefore it is rape.

In the event that, in a previous relationship a woman has suffered abuse (which her current partner may know nothing about), and therefore does not feel empowered within herself to say "no" or not to say yes, then how can that be rape? a survivor of abuse may have learned that the best way to not get hit is to open her legs to any advances and just say yes.

All cues and clues point very much to a woman in that situation giving consent. however it is a consent under duress, even though that duress may not be provided by the person who is presently raping her...
(of course, they man in that case would very likely not get convicted of rape, but it is not true to say that where there is no conviction there was no rape.)

We live in a very fucked up world, and pretending that rape can be solved by just sending a letter to all the men to withdraw consent to avoid confusion is somewhere between not funny and stupid. It trivialises a complex issue.

pretending that rape can be solved

I didn't read the OP as pretending all rape could be solved by this, I thought it was just clarifying that the standard assumption should be that consent has not been given.

pretending that rape can be solved by just sending a letter to all the men to withdraw consent to avoid confusion is somewhere between not funny and stupid.

I think that this spectacularly (deliberately?) misreads the OP.

Of course the OP wasn't suggesting she could 'solve' rape with a letter!

She was expressing her frustration that many people appear to not understand what consent is.

Of course, silly OP, nice idea but back to the drawing board you have failed to solve rape. In fact I think overcomplicating rape is more of a risk in the current climate, suggesting grey areas in places that are actually very clear i.e. consent was not given, and since the opening post is directed at pointing out the absurdity of implied consent rape apologists, perhaps listing every circumstance under which rape occurs isn't that enlightening.

so who is the name-changing MNer??

*Yet it's quite ok for the OP to say in her 'sardonic' OP that she wouldn't be sending it to her own husband.

You conveniently missed that one*

No I didn't conveniently miss that one. I assumed the OP meant that she doesn't need to send him a letter as she can tell him personally whether or not she consents, within the context of their relationship.

a survivor of abuse may have learned that the best way to not get hit is to open her legs to any advances and just say yes

That's exactly how I felt after being raped at the age of 15. My attitude was 'what's the point saying no - didn't work for me last time'. Basically I slept with anyone who asked me to for about a year after it happened. The only reason I wasn't known as the town bike was because there were 'bike-ier' girls in my peer group. My rape was the stereotypical image of rape too - knife to throat and threats to kill me if I resisted.

I'm also "guilty" of giving in to boyfriends who, having been told "no" continued to pester me until it was 'easier' to just give in so I could get some sleep. Do I see that as the same thing as my original rape? Hell no, however I'm sure some on here would accuse me of perpetuating the myth that deep down all women 'want it', just that some take more persuading than others.

^What??? Non-verbal clues that imply consent include guiding somebody else's penis into one's own body, freely and enthusiastically. This can also be done verbally, freely & enthusiastically. That's all you need to know.Yes, they include, but I'm assuming that's far from a definitive list, and one persons non-verbal clues are different from another's.
Have you and your partner sat and worked out an exhaustive list? or are you trusting that he'll figure it out?
If you sit in bed naked and beckon your partner to come to bed, in the most sexual way that you can imagine, is that an invitation for him to "come to bed for sex" or an request to come to bed because you've had a hard day and just want to be close to him. (which you may or may not have discussed throughout the evening?)
If you're in bed during the day is it because you are in the mood and want your partner to join you? or is it because you want a nap?
If you wear sexy clothes to bed, is it to titillate your partner and signal to them in a non-verbal way that you want sex? Is it because you want to feel sexy yourself (though not actually have sexy), or is it because that thing that you wear that does it for him was the last clean thing that you had to wear to bed and one of you really must do the laundry in the morning?
Do you understand how it may be easy for your husband to think that you being naked and telling him to come to bed might be a sign that he thinks you want sex?, then when he does come to bed, and "tries it on", What he thinks could be foreplay is actually sexual assault?Lots of situations may be interoperated in lots of different ways.^

Firstly all rape is violent. There is no such thing as non violent rape. Right off. Physically assaulting someone is violent.

Secondly in any of the above scenerios. Presumably the lovely unaware husband would not roll his wife over and shove a cock in. That's where you seem to be getting confused. Sex should have some kind of fucking preamble. If you're too lazy for foreplay, then ask.

My husband has never accidentally unaware raped me. It's funny how many men manage to go their whole lives without "accidentally with the best of intentions" raping someone.

From the sounds of it I am pitying Ms Uniquename as you are clearly shit at sex.

Sorry to hear that fight I hope no-one accuses you of that simply for recounting your own experience. To me this just highlights the difference between not being sure about something and consent that is relatively freely given. It's possible that some of those people that had sex with you were not very nice & taking advantage of the situation without actually breaking the law. Would you agree?

MaMaMarmoset Good post. I've started and then backspaced similar posts, on account of wanting to vomit.

It's possible that some of those people that had sex with you were not very nice & taking advantage of the situation without actually breaking the law. Would you agree?

None of them knew I'd been raped. I kept that quiet until I was in my early 20's and got engaged to a lovely, gentle man.

A lot of the men I had sex with were not very nice and as I was still under the age of consent they probably did know they were breaking the law, at least in that respect. I doubt any of them felt that they were raping me as I was consenting to having intercourse with them. I'm sure each and every one of them would have been totally outraged at the suggestion that it could be considered rape. I didn't consider it to be rape so why would they?

Good post. I've started and then backspaced similar posts, on account of wanting to vomit. grin

I can't say there wasn't a struggle.

I'm just trying to clarify my thoughts on some of this so thanks for replying. I find it hard to believe those men felt that you were both getting a fair deal out of the situation,

Posted too soon, obv those that had sex with you underage cannot be too outraged since they're actual rapists by the letter of the law, but I understand that you did not feel as violated.

I think that this spectacularly (deliberately?) misreads the OP.
yes, badly put, perhaps I should have said that Yes, rape should be talked about, but making a joke about it (in my opinion) perhaps isn't the best way to start a productive conversation.

She was expressing her frustration that many people appear to not understand what consent is.
I thought it was more about deciding how consent is granted?

Perhaps if we're coming at this from a different view point that explains why I've found it so frustrating that the OP's stance was that consent could never just be granted by being implied, unless it was her implying it to her DH, and him taking the hint the right way.

obv those that had sex with you underage cannot be too outraged since they're actual rapists by the letter of the law

To be honest Alice I don't remember ever telling any of them that I was underage, nor do I recall them asking. I think they were just pleased they'd found someone who would drop their knickers for them and didn't question things beyond that. I wasn't, however, one of those girls who looked mature for their age. At 15 I definitely looked my age (possibly even younger) as I was a late developer and didn't wear make-up until my late teens.

somewhere between not funny and stupid

I actually think it's fucking offensive

I am genuinely surprised there is so much misunderstanding of the op.
The "letter" (you do see it's not a real letter yes?) is not being sent to ask men not to rape me (although rape is the underlying issue)
Its an illustration. The point of it is simply highlighting my frustration at the wildly unfair position so many people hold about consent.
There is a widely held assumption that if a woman does not explicitly say no then she is saying yes.
This is what underpins the belief that being drunk/ asleep/ in the arms or bed of a man is a consent to sex.
So i am not accusing all men of being rapists, or suggesting they all want to have sex with me

And as i have explained before, the reason i left dh and laurence fox off the list was firstly because the whole thing is TIC and secondly because I think he might be upset to receive such a letter explicitly removing sexual consent from someone who he has a sexual relationship with. Of course it is possible for a man to rape his wife. It is surprisingly/ disturbingly common.

And btw, thank you to those who have explained their understanding of the OP.